the cup of wraththe cup of wraththe cup of wrath


Will there be a Rapture of the Church?

"I attend a Bible study each week...One fellow, like you, has Arnold Murray as his favorite pastor, and another hangs on the teachings of Les Feldick. The one seems to be 100% convinced that there will be no rapture of the church prior to the tribulation. The other is 100% convinced that there will be a rapture. They both study the Bible regularly, and give scripture verses from both the Old and New Testaments to justify their opinions...Any advice or opinion on the rapture matter would be greatly appreciated?", (Question from Ed Beck).

Arnold Murray and a few other pastors are very much against the idea of a rapture, however, many other churches don't teach much of anything except rapture, building their theologies around it. As you can see rapture is a touchy subject, and there are a multitude of opinions about it.

As for me, I'm fully convinced that there will be no rapture of the church, and that rapture is essentially a case of mistaken identity. However, one of the difficulties in addressing the issue of rapture is that it is intertwined with alot of different and broader subjects. Whether one is a premillennialist (Jesus returns before the millennium), or a postmillennialist (Jesus returns after the millennium), and how one interprets the events of the tribulation period, will all affect the reasons that one either accepts or rejects the rapture doctrine. As a premillennialist (see ch.20 Resurrection at Christ's Return), who believes in the literal return of Jesus Christ at the end of the seven year tribulation period, the following is my opinion on rapture.

First, we should consider that the bible describes that Christ will return to earth at the second advent, and nowhere does it tell us that he will return multiple times, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation" (Hebrews 9.28 KJV bible), "And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming" (1st John 2.28 KJV bible). As Christians, we are all awaiting the second coming of Christ, when he shall appear the second time "unto salvation". This means that his appearance will bring about the deliverance of his people from the troubles of the world, "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels" (2nd Thessalonians 1.6-7 KJV bible).

If Jesus was going to be rapturing some or all of his servants out of the world, then why does the New Testament instruct us as Christians to be expectant and hopeful for his appearance, as in the case of Titus 2.12-13, "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly...Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2.12-13 KJV bible)? The bible tells us to be hopeful in anticipation for Christ's return as Chief of all shepherds, "Feed the flock of God which is among you...And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away" (1st Peter 5.4 KJV bible). Nowhere does it tell us to be hopeful and expectant for a rapture of the church, in which Christians are supernaturally taken out of the world to be with Christ in heaven.

The main passages used to support rapture are actually about the first resurrection.

Christ's return to earth will be a cataclysmic event that is the fulfillment of many bible prophecies. One important event that will take place immediately at Christ's return is the first resurrection of the dead, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1st Corinthians 15.51-52 KJV bible). Christ will return at the last trumpet, which is the seventh trumpet, and at his appearance, the saints (both living and dead) will all be changed into incorruptible bodies (see ch.15 Bodies of the Resurrection).

Part of this resurrection process involves believers being literally gathered to Christ as he is returning to earth, "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13.26-27 KJV bible). It is this gathering of believers to the Lord, as he is returning, that is often misinterpreted as proof of a coming rapture.

So the gathering of Christians to Christ in the air is a real event, but it is actually describing the first resurrection of the dead, as opposed to a rapture of the church. This gathering of believers in the first resurrection is the subject of the famous "rapture passage" of 1st Thessalonians 4.13-17, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him...For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" (1st Thessalonians 4.14,16 KJV bible). At the last trumpet, which is at the end of the tribulation, the Lord will descend, and the dead in Christ will spiritually "rise first". Then the scripture goes on to tell us what will happen to the believers who are still alive on earth at this time, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1st Thessalonians 4.17 KJV bible). The Christians who remain in the flesh will then meet the Lord in the air, leaving behind their earthly lives. So we come to understand that the real subject of 1st Thessalonians 4.13-17 is the first resurrection of the dead, when believers (both alive and in heaven) will be transformed spiritually and eternally united with Christ (see also ch.21 1st Thessalonians 4).

Fortunately for rapture zealots, there are several versions of the rapture doctrine, and one version of rapture may even be reconcilable with what the bible tells us. According to the post-tribulation rapture theory, the rapture takes place at the end of the tribulation, and is related to Christ's return. It basically comes down to semantics as to whether one wants to call the gathering of the saints at Christ's return a rapture or not.

I personally feel that the term rapture is a bit misleading though, because believers won't actually be taken out of the world, but meet the Lord in the air as he returns. They don't disappear into heaven, but will reign with him throughout the millennium. Also, its important not to reduce the first resurrection of the dead, and all that it encompasses, to a simple rapture-like event. The first resurrection of the dead involves the transformation of believers into spiritual bodies, and the uniting of the church with Christ as the eternal bride of the Lamb. It will be a spiritual raising up of believers, when they are received by Christ as Sons of God (see also ch.15 Bodies of the Resurrection).

As far as dealing with the issue of rapture within a group or church, it's a touchy subject. This maybe why defining the position of many groups and churches on rapture is like trying to nail jello to a wall. Now me personally, I get annoyed hearing that we're all gonna be raptured over and over, but I don't know that rapture is a significant theological issue. Neither do I believe that there is "rapture conspiracy" other than the fact that alot people want to believe it. I wouldn't think that the subject of rapture is worth breaking up a church or study group over, but it's overwhelming popularity seems to generate controversy.


Jane christy      12 Nov 2010, 23:44

There is a so called rapture in the Bible. We've been studying it so long already and until now i'm still confused because that's a heavy and serious doctrine in the Bible.

Bill      19 Jan 2011, 17:05

I believe that the scriptures are pointing to the gathering in the sky at the end of tribulation on the day of the LORD. comments welcome, I am in the process of prayer and study on this subject.

Doug Buckley      20 Jan 2011, 10:13

Hi Bill, yes that is what I am saying with respect to the rapture. There will be a rapture-like event that takes place at the end of the tribulation, when God's elect are gathered to him in the air. This rapture event is the first resurrection of the dead when Christ returns. So I am saying that many scriptures about the first resurrection of the dead and us gathering to Christ at his return have been misused to support a pre-trib rapture. Good to hear from you.

Diane Nobles      22 Jan 2011, 20:34

My Father was a preacher and preached one ressurection. If all the Christians are gone in the so called rapture, who will be left to witness? When Noah gave the call, the people wouldn't listen, the floods came, the door was shut. The Left Behind series are Just plain fiction.

Doug Buckley      24 Jan 2011, 15:30

Hi Diane, when Christ returns he will gather his elect to him, and this is sort of like a rapture. The "left behind" series is basically junk theology. It has become very successful by appealing to all the most popular evangelical beliefs, foremost of which is a pretribulation rapture.

marilyn      24 Jul 2011, 12:09

found a great bible study on this subject. you can study it yourself to show yourself approved and as noble as a berean......

Robin Wood      02 Sep 2011, 12:50

Ofcourse it doesn't mention the Rapture in old testament........ It hadn't been revealed yet. It was a mystery a secrete!!! Hey if you know about Les Feldick........Then watch him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Robin Wood      02 Sep 2011, 12:55

Diane- the 144,000! God is not done with the Jew!!!! That's why I love he answers all these questions and shows you where to find it in the bible to back it up!

marilyn      02 Sep 2011, 18:33

With all due respect and sensitivity, I do not know Les Feldick but quickly looked into some of his beliefs. Right off the bat, I believe him to be teaching false doctrine, at least about a supposed "rapture" where the church disappears to heaven. It would be great if we all studied scripture without the leading of anyone who is peddling God's word. That's why I mentioned a great study I found online.
Even if you believe otherwise, all the scriptures that tell the end time story are part of the study and you can come to your own conclusions.
In addition to the rapture doctrine that been so distorted, the true gospel message has been diluted as well. Our tv evangelists and our book selling ministries have reduced the message of Jesus from "repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near"(matt 4) to walk an aisle, say a few words and you're "in". No where in the bible is grace that lenient. In fact, grace is very costs us our own life as it also did our Savior's. The message of the NT is NOW we can be obedient because we have the very Person of God living inside us......obedience doesn't save us. God does. But when He does, obedience follows or it is not true salvation.
All this is a sign of our times indeed!

Robin Wood      03 Sep 2011, 21:17

You do know that Repent, be baptized etc.. anything in Mathew is speaking to Israel. The jews. Not the Gentiles. Compare Acts 15 to Galations 2 and see the difference. To be saved today in the age of Grace you need to read and Believe Ephesians1:13 and 1 Corithians 15:1-4. If you remove Pauls epistles from the Bible Romans thru Philemon there is no hope for us today. That is Rightly dividing the word of truth as the bible tells us to do. Not between OT and NT. Faith plus Nothing!!!!!

marilyn      06 Sep 2011, 21:18

Maybe my post was confusing. I do not believe there is a division of OT and NT. In fact, the only Word of God that Paul, Peter, James, etc had when writing their letters was the OT. The Pentateuch and the Prophets ARE the Word of God they referred to in their letters. The Pentateuch and the Prophets' writings were the Word of God that Jesus came to FULFILL not abolish. The message of ALL of the bible is repentance and faith. God did not come to earth, suffer and be crucified to tell one story to Jews and another story to Gentiles. All of us are His audience and ALL of us are saved the same way, repentance and faith. In the OT, law and sacrifice for sin were never meant to save us because we could not be obedient enough. Therefore, Paul explained that the law and sacrifice was meant only to show us our sin. (Gal) But that's not where the story ends. The good news is that a perfect blood sacrifice brings us back to the Father, instead of the blood of animals as explained in Hebrews. However, that does not abolish the repentance/faith message. ......quite the contrary. It fulfills it. It makes repentance and faith possible now. He, Himself tells His followers, which are now neither Jew or Gentile (Gal 3) that the message is still repentance and faith. He says it many times as do others in the NT. (Matt 3,4,11,12,21, Mark 1,6, Luke 3,5,10,11,13,15, Acts 2,3,5,8,11,17,19,26, Romans 2, 2Cor 7, 2Tim 2, etc, etc) Paul preaches repentance and faith as Jesus did. Acts 20:21 "I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus". Peter preaches repentance 2Pet 3. And the writer of Hebrews also preaches this same message (Heb 6).
As I said in my last post, our works do not save us, the blood of Jesus does. But the words spoken on an altar at church are not how we are saved either. We are saved by repentance and faith in what Jesus has done and said. And true salvation, the person who truly repents and puts their faith in Jesus will be evident by the life changing miracle that happens when the Holy Spirit now resides in that person. Not words.......but works show whether we actually did/do repent and whether we actually did/do put our faith in Jesus (James 2).
If all we have to do is make a statement or believe that Jesus is who He says He is, yet live without repentance and faith in practice, we are not reading the whole Word of God. We could be a messenger of Satan and know exactly who Jesus is but we will still perish. We have to take into consideration every jot and tittle, study to show ourselves approved. We cannot take a verse here and there and make a new doctrine. His law, previously written on stone is NOW written on our hearts. What is that law? What does it say? nothing? no commandments to obedience? May it never be. Grace is not an abolishment of the commandments of God. Grace makes salvation now possible and obedience also possible. (Rom 8)

Rich      10 Mar 2012, 18:11

I am NO theologian, but I have a few questions. I ask them not as an attack, far be it, but to better understand your perspective. So PLEASE take these as from a brother, in fact a brother in CHRIST.

Why would GOD pour out his wrath on HIS bride?

We are continually compared to a bride, a Jewish bride… Does not the traditional Jewish bride groom come to his betroth at an unknown hour to claim her? Then take her to a place he has prepared for her?

Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour of HIS coming, not even him, but the FATHER alone. Yet he clearly tells us when he will come as the Lion exactly 3 1/2 years from the desecration of the Temple. How does this fit?

I thought the Tribulation was to turn Israel to GOD?

If we are already HIS, why the extra suffering, Do we not already suffer the wrath of this world?

If we are HIS body, why would GOD punish HIM again?

Why do the scriptures go out of their way to show the great lengths GOD will go to, in removing any righteous before he pours out HIS wrath (Examples: Noah and especially Lot), if it is not a type of the ultimate pouring out of HIS wrath?

I am enjoying your site, and am learning a lot from your perspective. But… you really got me on this one.

Robin Wood      10 Mar 2012, 22:10

check out any of pastor richard jordans videos on youtube forgotten truths the are a great way to learn how to rightly divide... 2 tim 2:15 replacement theology is satans lie

robin wood      10 Mar 2012, 22:36

Rich- check out Rapture of the Church by richard jordan on youtube forgotten truths....

Also, all of Lesfeldicks lessons are awesome! he teaches you verse by verse and you follow along with them on the screen so you can study them for yourself. We will not got thru tribulation!

Rich      11 Mar 2012, 00:36

Thanks Robin - I really like Chuck Missler on this subject. He like Richard Jordan digs deep into scripture to let GOD answer for him.

I am presently trying to understand rewards, crowns, inheritance as opposed to the belief that Salvation is the GOAL. I am finding more and more that like Paul we need to run the race to WIN. Paul was saved, yet he never stopped WORKING for his rewards. Just because we will be admitted into the Kingdom, does not necessarily mean we will be invited to the banquet. Not to say I believe we can attain justification by works, we can not! Our works outside of Jesus's blood are as filthy rags, BUT with his blood, allowing the HOLY SPIRIT to use us, laying down our will for HIS, now in that are REWARDS, CROWNS and INHERITANCE!

Below is a link to Chuck on youtube:

We win this race together - not divided. I pray that the body can search out GODS truth, without taring itself apart.


robin wood      12 Mar 2012, 09:31

Thanks Rich! I will be sure to check him out! Also I at book 14 is where you will find you answer to your question above. click on search the site and type in any question you have and it will take you to that book.

If we remove Rapture, we gotta remove Paul because he speaks of it so much! If we remove Paul then there is nothing for us today!

God Bless!

Doug Buckley      12 Mar 2012, 14:57

Hi Rich (couple changes). Rapture touches on all kinds of biblical issues, and you raise some good honest questions. I will try to answer them in the context of rapture.

God doesn't exactly pour out his wrath on the bride of Christ. Our sins are forgiven so that we will be spared from the wrath of the Lamb when he returns (1st Thess 5.9). However, in the OT God sent tribulation against Israel because of her sins and wickedness.

History is simply repeating itself, like the writers of the NT prophecied that it would. In Revelation Jesus only approves of 2/7 historical churches. Paul warns us of "perilous times" and that men would reject sound doctrine (2nd Tim 4.3), and Peter speaks of false teachers entering in and corrupting the faith (2nd Peter 2). Man has corrupted was God has given.

So the tribulation shouldn't be seen as God punishing Christians, but rather a testing and purifying of them, to separate the true from the false. The early church wasn't raptured. Instead they suffered terrible persecution, not for punishment, but for glory and a witness to the world.

Most of the apostles were martyred for God's glory. In fact, examples such as Noah and Lot represent Christians being delivered from the wrath of Christ, not the persecution of the world (see 2nd Peter 2.4-9). So alot of Christians want to be that last generation that will bear witness of Christ, and to glory at his return.

"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (1st Peter 1.7 KJV bible).

What Jesus says about his return also contradicts rapture. Jesus says no man knows the day or hour, but he goes on to tell us to be watchmen. Jesus tells us the signs that will precede his return for a reason. The watchmen is alert to watch so that the day does NOT come as a thief in the night (see 1st Thess 1.5-9). The point being that we are supposed to watch for the signs because no one knows the date, and not just the world but Christians are going to fall for the deception.

As far as the bride, this doesn't support rapture either. Yes, we are the bride purchased by Christ's blood, and yes he will come to get us. He comes at last trumpet, and gathers the bride to MEET him in the air at his return (1st Thessalonians 4.13-17). This is the spiritual communion and consummation that precedes the feast/celebration. Rapture promoters have embellished some details of the classic Jewish wedding to make it fit better with rapture, but what is consistent is that the consummation comes before the feast. The feast happens here (Isaiah 25.6) because Christ returns here. So post tribulation rapture is consistent with a Jewish wedding.

Rapture touches on alot of different biblical subjects, but the key to studying rapture is to look at all the biblical passages in context to see who is really telling people the truth. Rapture actually gets torn apart alot among bible scholars, but people want it, and so many pastors and churches embrace rapture.

Rich      12 Mar 2012, 19:42

Doug, Thank you for taking the time to respond to me.

Let me first say... I love this stuff; iron sharpens iron… Please remember as we continue conversing, I am not seeking to be right but rather I seek to draw closer to my LORD by getting to know him through the revelation of HIS WORD. So, though I may disagree, I never wish to tear down, only to sharpen and be sharpened. I know full well:

“The greatest obstacle to finding the truth is the presumption that we already have it.”

That said…

I fully expect to see tribulation, suffering, and many other horrible things in this fallen world. I hope to “count it all JOY” as I persevere through that which by his infinite wisdom the LORD has seen fit for me to suffer for my perfection, knowing that HE will never make my burden so heavy that I cannot endure it. I also understand that the LORD fully intends to chastise HIS children and HIS church as a loving father would his son.

The tribulation spoken of in Revelation is GOD’S WRATH. Rom 5:9 tells us we will be saved from wrath through HIM, Paul is clearly not suggesting that we are saved from the world’s wrath but from GODS. Jesus goes out of his way to tell us we must suffer under the world, for his sake, BUT not that he will have wrath toward us. Paul tells us there is no condemnation in Christ.

Let’s evaluate this scenario (This is probably a little irreverent, I apologize):

The groom leaves the bride asking her to persevere for she will surely suffer while he is gone. He sends a helper to strengthen her, and promises her she will not have to bare more than she is able. As the world will seek to beat, torture and kill her. So he comforts her with these words… “In my father’s house there are many mansions, I go to prepare a place for you, and if I go, I will surely come again and receive you to myself so where I am you will be also”. So the bride is comforted thinking of the glorious wedding and the wonderful place her betrothed goes to prepare.
Then the groom sends his servants to lay waste to all the land, beating and killing all who dwell there, for the sins of the people, she herself is beaten and tortured and almost killed, until HIS mother repents and calls on HIS NAME. Then the groom comes back collects his beaten bride, NOT to take her home to the promised mansion but right back to the carnage and leads his bloody bride with the precession to the wedding ceremony

REALLY, is that what we are to believe?

If the Church is here on the earth during the tribulation, why the 144,000 Jewish evangelists?

Why promise mansions in his father’s house if we are not to go there?

Jesus goes out of his way to tell us when the second coming will be (though both the old and new testaments)… Then why say no man knows the day or the hour of his coming?

Why does Daniel call the tribulation the time of Jacobs’s trouble?

Who are the 24 elders in Rev 19 around the throne of GOD?

Why does Matt 24 say to pray your flight not be on the Sabbath if he is talking to the church?

Why does GOD wrath stop only when Israel cries out to HIM?

Maybe his coming to collect his bride is a hidden event so the “master (satan) of the house (world) will not see him (Jesus) coming” (Matt 24:42…) and is in fact a separate event from HIS SECOND COMING when he steps foot on the earth. Maybe this event takes place to SAVE his bride from the wrath to come. This would align nicely to what he did for Noah (a righteous man) and for Lot. In Lots case the LORD lets us know that the angels could not destroy the cities UNTIL Lot (a righteous man) was SAFELY OUT, both while Abraham debates with HIM, and later as the angles rush Lot out. We are justified by the blood of Christ… We are Righteous in GODS sight. Why not save us from HIS WRATH?

I feel there is a lot of evidence to support a pre-tribulation “harpazo”, although you and a friend of mine are sure making me do my homework.


Rich      12 Mar 2012, 20:01


One more observation;
I noticed just now while rereading, that you said history is just repeating itself... GOD throughout the OT brought tribulation upon Israel for their sins.

You are absolutely right... GOD is bringing tribulation on Israel again. ON ISRAEL!

GOD has never brought tribulation on HIS church, the world has.

OK, I think I am done for tonight. Again this is great stuff; I am really enjoying your site.


robin wood      12 Mar 2012, 22:22

Being a true believer in THE GOSPEL 1 cor 15 :1-4 we are sealed with the holy spirit! God sees into our heart so knowing if we truly believe is not an issue for God. We are either sealed with the holy spirit or we are not. Therefore saying that we will go thru tribulation to seperate those who are truly his or not would not fit. I completely agree with you Rich...why then the 144,000? Lots of good info on the site you gave me too! :)

Rich      13 Mar 2012, 09:01

Forgive me... I was mistaken... It was not Daniel who called the tribulation "the time of Jacobs’s trouble" but Jer 30:7, although Daniel speaks a great deal about this time. See chapter 12 and for a layout of the 70 weeks (the last being the tribulation) see Daniel 9.


Doug Buckley      15 Mar 2012, 05:53

Hi Rich, Again you raise some good points about rapture. There is an entire theology around rapture. I can't comment on every aspect of rapture theology, and alot of it doesn't prove a pre-trib rapture more than a post-trib rapture. What the scriptures do make clear is that the church, believers, the elect, the bride will be here through the tribulation.

First, lets be clear what the wrath of God is, "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds" (Romans 2.5-6 KJV bible).

The bible tells us that Jesus is coming back, after the tribulation. This is when he pours out his wrath not on believers, but on the world.

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Revelation 6.16-17 KJV bible).

This is why Paul says, "And to you who are troubled REST with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2nd Thess 1.5).

With respect to Noah and Lot, Peter compares the destructions they were delivered from to the wrath of Christ at his return. They were both tried, and then delivered from God's wrath.

"And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds" (2nd Peter 2.7-9 KJV bible).

On the other hand, the tribulation is not God's wrath, but comes from the world, "And it was given unto him [the beast] to make war with the SAINTS, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations" Revelation 13.7 KJV bible).

Yes God will send plagues on the world, but as Revelation 9.4 tells us, the elect have God's seal on them. Its the beast that persecutes the saints during the tribulation. This is because they reject the false messiah that Jesus warns his followers about.

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very ELECT. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not" (Matthew 24.24-26 KJV bible).

The word elect means the chosen ones of God, and is the same Greek word that Jesus uses when he says "many are called but few chosen". So rather than being raptured Jesus says the elect will be here and warns them about the deception of the antichrist.

Paul makes clear that there will be no rapture, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our GATHERING TOGETHER unto him... Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (2nd Thessalonians 2.1,2.4 KJV bible).

That's straight from Paul's mouth that believers are not gathering to him in any way, ie a rapture, until the antichrist is revealed. He warns the church of a falling away and great deception,

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (2nd Thessalonians 2.8-9 KJV bible).

This is whole point of Christ receiving the virgin bride after the tribulation. Anyone who understands the Jewish wedding knows that the man pays a dowery, but if the wife does not remain faithful and loves another before he comes for her, then he will not receive her. If her husband comes, and she is in bed with another then she hasn't stayed true.

Paul tells us, "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a CHASTE virgin to Christ" (2nd Corinthians 11.2 KJV bible).

The elect are the bride, because they are faithful through trial and temptation. They are not raptured, but remain undeceived and chaste for the true Messiah.

Also Jesus comes as a thief upon the world, not believers.

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are NOT IN DARKNESS, that that day should overtake you as a thief...Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober" (1st Thessalonians 5.2-6 KJV bible)

That's the whole point of staying awake in faith, and watching, so believers know what's going on and not be deceived. No one knows the literal day, so we must watch to know the season. The one that's asleep when Christ returns will be caught off guard and be like the unwise virgins whom he rejects.

"Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not" (Matthew 25.11-12 KJV bible).

"So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors" (Mark 13.29 KJV bible).

"Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping" (Mark 13.35-36 KJV bible).

So rapture is a complex subject and alot work has been done to support rapture theology. I see alot of scriptures that refute the basic premise of rapture. Of course theres alot that rapture Christians are right about, but I do believe there will be any kind of rapture until the second coming when Christ gathers his bride, which is the resurrection.

This is when each believer receives their inheritance, which is the place in God's Kingdom that he has prepared for them,

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matthew 19.28 KJV bible).

The regeneration is the resurrection when Christ returns. Pastors should be teaching about the first resurrection, not the rapture, because that is the event that is often mistaken for the rapture.

Clearly the apostles are more worthy of being the bride than the current corrupt church. If we understand the gathering to Christ not as the rapture of the church, but the first resurrection, then we see that all generations of believers are included, especially the apostles.

Rich      15 Mar 2012, 07:41


Thank you for taking the time to respond in such detail. I am not sure this forum was designed for this detailed a discussion, but I would love to continue, so if it is alright with you I will. If not, please let me know… this is an important issue and should be completely studied.

OK, in just a brief reading through your response there are many obvious issues I can see in your logic. No disrespect, with the help of scripture and the HOLY SPIRIT I will explain. I do not want to take these lightly because these “issues” are not yours alone. I do not have the time this morning… but will respond to all of your points shortly. Also I noticed there are a few questions you have not really addressed, the most obvious is the 144000 sealed of the 12 tribes.

I should state before we continue; we should not allow this to become a dividing issue, we all benefit from the studying of GODS WORD. I do not consider this issue to be dangerous or of great concern, UNLESS it is used to tear apart HIS BODY. We need to remember… PRE, MID, POST, as long as we are in HIM, we will all laugh about this in the KINGDOM. Also we should learn a lesson from the JEWS… We are probably all mistaken to some degree, and will be surprised at HIS glorious fulfillment.

GOD BLESS YOU… and have a great day!

Chris      05 Jul 2012, 11:11

Notice how after Revelation 3 the church is no longer mentioned. I've heard a famous pastor say that the "Tribulation is for the salvation of the Jewish nation" and it makes total sense. As Christians most of us are only familiar with the new testament but when we familiarize ourselves with the Jewish feast days things start to pop out in the NT and make sense. For example Paul refered to the last trump and many novice readers/believers would excusably assume Paul is referring to the Angel in Revelation who begins the pouring out of God's wrath. But according to jewish custom, there is the First Trump, Last Trump and Great Trump affiliated with scripture. The three great trumpets (shofarim) that mark MAJOR events in the
redemptive plan of God are associated with days in the Biblical
calendar. The FIRST TRUMP is associated with and was seen as being blown by God on the feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) when God gave the Torah at Mount Sinai. In Exodus (Shemot) 19:18-19 it is written: "And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. And when the voice of the TRUMPET sounded LONG and waxed LOUDER and LOUDER, Moses
spake, and God answered him by a voice"
God was seen as blowing the TRUMPET (shofar) on Mount Sinai in Exodus (Shemot) 19:19. It is SUPERNATURAL to blow the shofar and for the sound to "wax louder and louder". It is NATURAL when you blow the shofar for the person blowing the shofar to loose their wind and the sound of the shofar to wane as this happens. However, on Mount Sinai, the TRUMPET "waxed louder and louder".
The LAST TRUMP is associated and blown on Rosh HaShanah. In his book, "Festivals of the Jewish Year" in the chapter on Rosh HaShanah, the Orthodox Jewish author (not a believer in Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah) will tell you that an IDIOM for Rosh HaShanah is the LAST TRUMP.
Therefore because the LAST TRUMP is a Jewish idiom for ROSH HASHANAH, the Apostle Paul (Rav Sha'ul) when referring to the resurrection of the dead happening at the "last trump" was using a Jewish idiom for the feast of Rosh HaShanah and indicating by doing so that the resurrection of the dead will take place on Rosh HaShanah. Also Jesus gave a clue. Rosh Hashana is also known as the day noone knows the day or hour. We read that with untrained eyes and assume it literally. *Taken from Eddie Chumney*
Jesus spoke in parables so non-believers/non-God seekers wouldn't figure it out. When Jesus spoke to Sardis saying repent otherwise you may not know when I come... and Paul alluding to his brothers not living in ignorance or darkness and that they know the day. I believe that if you are a true blue Christian, your entire life should be a tribulation which is why Jesus says to pray you are worthy to escape all these things. Amen

Doug Buckley      07 Jul 2012, 06:24

Hi Chris. Many pastors that teach rapture believe that the tribulation is for salvation of the Jews. However, some scriptures indicate that the people persecuted during the tribulation are Christians, and they are persecuted for being Christians,

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of JESUS Christ" (Revelation 12:17 KJV bible).

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of JESUS, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4 KJV bible)

The trumpet is an important part of Jewish custom that has roots in the OT. It also weighs heavily on the rapture debate because Paul mentions it in 1st Thessalonians 4.13-17. There are probably several different final trumpets in different Jewish customs. However, I would be careful using Jewish "custom" to interpret the teachings of Jesus and NT prophecy.

We want to know what Paul means by the last trumpet. In 1st Corinthians 15, he refers to it in the context of the resurrection of the dead. According to Revelation 20.1-5 and other places, the first resurrection happens at Christ's return, after the tribulation period. The last trumpet comes after there would be a rapture.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection" (Revelation 20:5 KJV bible).

So if the dead resurrect at the end of the tribulation, then we've placed the last trumpet at that time. Further, if we are working within the context of the tribulation period, then the obvious choice for understanding what Paul means by last trumpet are the seven "heavenly" trumpets of Revelation.

The trumpets of Revelation are actually rooted in the OT. The men of Israel marched around Jericho and blew six trumpets. Then at the seventh trumpet they made a great shout or war cry so that the city walls came down. Then they destroyed the city.

This prophetical type is exactly what Paul is alluding to in 1st Thessalonians 4.16, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" (1 Thessalonians 4:16 KJV bible).

Check out the word "shout", as it means a war cry. This is because Christ returns as a conquerer to take the kingdoms of the world.

"And the SEVENTH angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the KINGDOMS of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Revelation 11:15 KJV).

Thus we see the whole context of 1st Thessalonians 4.13-17 is locked in by prophecy as being the resurrection of the dead at the second coming of Christ. It works against a pre-trib rapture.

samuel      06 Sep 2012, 08:17

the rapture mentioned in the bible occurs at the end of tribulation. it's says several times throughout the new testament. it say we will be prosecuted,and put to death for his names sake (Jesus)

carrierwave      19 Oct 2012, 14:17

There is present in the scriptures a seeming contradiction about the return of Jesus Christ to this earth.

On one hand we have the Christ returning at the end of the Book of Revelation to put down the final attack upon the Jews and Saints at the battle of Armageddon, where the world has just about been destroyed and mankind has been drinking blood to stay alive. All the grass is burned up, the sun and moon have been "smitten" every mountain has been leveled; shear panic and horror are the emotions of the day. This is the look of the world as they will know it during the end of the tribulation and Christ returning to put down satan and his anti-christ.

However, the Bible describes another completely different scene of the earth, at Christ's coimg as it was in the Days Of Noah mankind is eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage. People will be working in the fields, sleeping in homes, some will be serfieting and getting drunk, their will be "peace and safety" some will be building and making wealth, then a "sudden" appearance of Christ takes the world by suprise, as a thief comes and steals valuables at night.

These 2 scenarios are REAL. They are both in scripture but contradict one another as to what it will be like at the coming of Christ.

My conviction is that there is a difference enough here to conclude that there are two separate events taking place centered around the return of the Lord. One says we are at PEACE and SAFE the other clearly says WAR and DEATH abound! This is a completely OPPOSITE view of things whether you want to admit it or not. This has led me to believe there is a "rapture" to take place other than the final return of our Lord Jesus Christ at Armageddon.

Until someone can show and reconcile the 2 scenarios seen in scripture without doing damage to the texts themselves I must conclude there is a separate event with opposite scenarios abounding in the end of the days when the Lord returns. You would have to be in denial to not see the blantant differences in each one. Sorry, but 'pastor' Murry must do a lot of juggling to reconcile these facts. Though I appreciate the article, it just does not address these Bible truths at all that must be dealt with before one can deny the existance of a rapture event described in the scriptures.

God bless,


Doug Buckley      21 Oct 2012, 16:09

Hi Carrierwave, God bless. I think you're right in noticing a few differences between these accounts, and I'll come back to this. But with respect to rapture the difference is somewhat irrelevant, because neither account really supports a rapture.

Of course Jesus' return in Revelation is the second coming which we know happens after the tribulation. But then consider Jesus' description of his return being like the days of Noah. In a rapture, people would disappear and then the world would continue on, and the antichrist would come, and be received as the messiah.

However Jesus doesn't describe a secret rapture return, but instead his return being like Noah's flood,

"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be (Matthew 24:37-39 KJV)"

This is comparable to the how his return is described elsewhere, a visible and violent flood of wrath on the wicked,

"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 KJV bible).

So in both descriptions Christ pours out his wrath on the ungodly and delivers the righteous, which is the second coming. So then how can we square this period of time with a tribulation in which there are plagues and disasters?

First, I don't believe Jesus is trying to say that the world will be perfectly normal before his return. The world wasn't normal during Noah's time either. But the key is that the people were ungodly and didn't believe and so they were completely caught off guard by what happened. They lived as though nothing would happen.

Second, is that in chaotic and troubled times people look for answers and for a leader. This is part of the deception of the antichrist. He is the savior and messiah of the world. He is their answer, thus they have no clue that a true Christ is about to return and condemn them. They don't accept or realize what's happening, and because they don't have faith they can't see the signs and plagues for what they are.

carrierwave      21 Oct 2012, 19:21

Hello Doug B.,

You stated: "I think you're right in noticing a few differences between these accounts".

Thank you for congratulating me on being right in noticing the differences in the 2 accounts, but I must say your observation of the accounts is a severely biased of course in light of 'major' differences you didn't mention, don't you think? I would not have mentioned it at all if it were indeed just a "few differences between these accounts". These 'drastic differences' have been the front-line defense of most pre-trib author's arguments concerning Rapture/Christ's return. And these truths are supposed to make a rapture event "irrelevant"? It completely explains "why" these differences exist very clearly in my judgment. I think you are highly minimizing if not ignoring the "details" and facts occurring in each. I suppose that is the only real way to dismiss these however; try to meld them together, LEAVING OUT specific words, details, events and order that would lend them to be seemingly THE SAME EVENT. Let me prove this.

"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be (Matthew 24:37-39 KJV)"

Note, JESUS plainly says that "For IN THE DAYS BEFORE the flood..."; My question to you is what were masses doing IN THE DAYS just before the 2nd Coming of Jesus' as He comes down out of the heavens on the final day of the Tribulation? Does it match with Matt. 24:37-39? Jesus said they would be "so shall also". Let's see.

Revelation chapters 16-18 plainly show what activities men were engaged in DURING THE DAYS BEFORE the 2nd Coming.

1st, All men with the mark get "a noisome and grevious sore" (Revelation 16:2).

2nd, All waters in the seas "became as the blood of dead men and every living soul died in the sea." (Rev. 16:3)

3rd, The rivers and fountains of waters "became blood."

4th, Men were "scorched with great heat and blasphemed the name God" (Rev. 16:8-9)

It would be my immediate course of action at just these first 4 plagues to be SEARCHING DESPERATELY TO FIND FRESH WATER!

Does this match WHAT JESUS SAID would be the "activities of men" found in Matt. 24:37-39? Jesus said AT HIS COMING it would be AS IT WAS in the days of Noe. Not in the slightest!

1. Eating

2. Drinking

3. Marrying

4. Giving in marriage

Jesus even said many 'believers' would NOT BE WATCHING, but surfieting, drunken, and overcharged with the cares of this life. (Luke 21:34) Sounds like bad conduct in good times to me. Plainly does not match "so shall also be" the activities of men at the 2nd Coming!

May I say politely, you seem to be in denial about this? These are glaring differences. These are CLEARLY separate scenarios and different events and activities. These are not "a few differences".

The 2 scenarios could be stated by 2 words--PANIC and at EASE!

Read it more carefully, my friend.


carrierwave      23 Oct 2012, 16:59

Hello all,

Doug made an interesting statement about my comment of the two completely differing scenarios found in scripture Matt. 24:37-39 (also see Luke 21:34-and Revelation Chapter 16-18, revolving around the question whether there was a "rapture" of the church. Here is his response quote:

"But with respect to rapture the difference (in the 2 differing scenarios) is somewhat irrelevant, because neither account really supports a rapture."

Since we are studying the Word of God and Revelation 22:19 tells us not to take away (any words) from the words of the prophesy we should study everything and not ignore parts that even might interfere with our personal beliefs on a subject.
As far as Doug's statement I agree with him that the "rapture" is not relevant with the 2nd coming at the end of the Tribulation. However, Matt. 22:37-39 has not only a completely opposite atmosphere and setting of circumstances of it's period in time, but contains warnings to 'christian' living lasciviously, and not WATCHING, for Christ's "COMING".
The parallel to this scripture found in Luke 21:34-36, plainly speaks about Christ coming as a "snare" to "all that dwell on the face of the earth". Then Jesus makes a marvelous statement; He commands them (believers) to "watch and pray always" that ye may be "accounted" (to deem entirely deserving) worthy to "ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS AND STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN".
Special note!: Jesus specifically said that those that will "ESCAPE" will entirely escape "ALL" these things that shall come to pass and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN." Did you see that?! The only way to "ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS", they are going to have to be REMOVED ENTIRELY from the scene! Not just from the plauges sent by God, but the anti-christ mark and persecution that will ensue and all harms of the 7 year Tribulation listed earlier in Luke 21. To further bolster these dynamic, statements the Lord Jesus HIMSELF, used the word "ESCAPE". That word Jesus used is "EKPHUEGO" which means to "flee out of". (Strong's actually uses "VANISH" as synonym of the root word!) Where? TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN! Sounds like a caught-up, rapture verses to me.
Amazingly, correlating terms, PAUL uses the very same word "escape" (EKPHUEGO, referring to the SAME SCENARIO as Matt. 24:37-39 and Luke 21:34-36 at a time period of "PEACE AND SAFETY" that "they shall NOT escape"(EKPHUEGO), referring to unsaved world taken by surprise. This is not the same period of time as the "return of Jesus" to this earth in Revelation 19. This is a time of PEACE AND SAFETY, MARRYING, DRINKING, WORKING, PLANTING, LAZY, CARNAL CHRISTIANS. Jesus and Paul command to WATCH AND BE SOBER during times of ease! "..for in such an hour as ye think not the son of man cometh". Matt. 24:44

When you look closely at these parallel verses and scenarios there is more than ample enough scriptural evidence for a "rapture" coming BEFORE the 7 year Tribulation begins.


Doug Buckley      23 Oct 2012, 17:46

Carrierwave, Before you go accusing people of bias perhaps you should take the time to read Jesus' words in the olivette discourse, which you seem to think supports a rapture. You should look at the context of Jesus' words to understand what he's saying, because he's not talking about a rapture.

Instead of forcing certain beliefs into scriptures, take a moment and listen to what Jesus is telling his disciples.

Jesus' disciples have just asked him about the signs of his coming and the end of the age (Matthew 24.3). Jesus goes on to lay out the signs of his return, not to the masses, but TO HIS DISCIPLES. These are the same events described in the book of Revelation, ie the tribulation period.

"And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another" (Matthew 24:6-10 KJV).

Plagues, wars, and famines will precede his return, just like the four horsemen of Revelation. He also describes afflictions and martyrdoms, just like Revelation. Jesus isn't saying this is what happens if they miss the rapture, because there is nothing about rapture in the passage.

Then Jesus says, TO HIS DISCIPLES, "Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be (Matthew 24:22-27 KJV).

Here Jesus plainly WARNS his disciples, the ELECT, not to be deceived by the false prophets and the antichrist.

"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast..." (Revelation 13:13-14 KJV).

Why? Because instead of being raptured, his elect are going to be here waiting for him. This is why he's describing to them the signs of his return, so they can know watch and know the season of his return.

Jesus says don't be deceived by the signs and wonders, and don't be gathered to the false Christ, because Jesus' return will be like lightning. Not some secret rapture, but a loud and terrific event that everyone sees. He's not returning as a flesh man, but the Lord of heaven, just like second coming is described everywhere else.

This is the obvious context of what Jesus is talking about with Noah's flood. He's not talking about a rapture, but he's talking about his return. Men are eating, drinking and giving in marriage. Why, because the masses are DECEIVED by the antichrist and living in the antichrist's one world system.

The context is that Jesus is explaining his return at the end of the age.They're eating and drinking like flesh people do in this flesh age. His return will be the end of the age, so as long as people are living their flesh lives, he hasn't returned.

There is nothing here about the world being "normal". The obvious point Jesus is making is that the people are unaware that Jesus is about to return. This has nothing to do with rapture.

But even if you add to Jesus' words, the idea that the world will be "normal" before he returns, there is still no way to read rapture into the passage. Jesus is still making the point that his return will be the end of the world, and just like Noah's flood the righteous will be delivered and the wicked punished.

This is what's so absurd about this argument, Noah wasn't raptured but was surviving in an evil world right up until the day of the flood. A secret rapture where people disappear is nothing like Noah's flood. The flood was a cataclysm that delivered the just and destroyed the ungodly. Jesus is obviously comparing his return to it.

If you understand the context of Jesus' message, Luke 21.34 makes more sense. The context is Jesus is describing to his followers the signs of his return, so that they won't be deceived. This is why he instructs them to "watch" for the signs of his coming, not some rapture.

This is why he warns in Luke 21.34, that if they fall away and become overcharged with the cares of this world, the day will come upon them when they don't expect it. They can't recognize the signs for what they are, and are deceived.

"The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 24:50-51 KJV)"

If one tries to read rapture into this passage it doesn't make sense. Jesus isn't talking about rapturing people out of the world, but receiving his true servants at his return.

This is what Jesus means when he says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21:36 KJV).

He's talking about knowing the signs, and holding strong in faith so as to escape the deception. Revelation doesn't say the elect are raptured, but they are spiritually protected during this time,

"And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" (Revelation 9:4 KJV).

So if you don't trust my explanation on this, then study it for yourself, because alot of these rapture teachers don't understand the Word and just tell people what they want to hear. Given the way things are now, the church will be easy pickings for the antichrist.

carrierwave      23 Oct 2012, 21:38


I did not expext you to be so defensive about this. I simply believe every detail and the specifics of these 2 scenarios and melding them as the same doesn't fit. It is impossible to do this without doing damage to what the Bible says by eliminating whole sections and words and actual happenings.

Also, to assume Jesus is only talking to his disciples in specific places in his discourses is to put out of place things that they would never even see, yet some of them were fulfilled during the seige on Jerusalem in 70 AD. But the Apostles have passed off the scene and he is writing to us today. There is perfect harmony in this with Apostle Paul about the time period "PEACE AND SAFETY" and the later discourse in Luke 21:34-36 and in Matt. 24:37-39. The scenario is just too evident to dismiss those repeated details. I am a little dismayed you do not see this.

In Revelation 16-19 the culmination of all the vial and trumpet judgments has set the world at near total human and geographical annihilation, mankind is full of sores, have been drinking BLOOD and scorched by the sun and stung by demon locust, killed by hailstones and fire--in which unless those days be shortened all human life would become extinct during that time. (Matt.24:22, Mark 13:20) Where does PEACE AND SAFETY fit in here?? Marrying and giving in marriage, working the harvest in the fields, partying saints?? How is Christ coming going to be a surprise in the midst of total chaos at the end?

Matt. 24:37-39, Luke 21:34-36 and 1Thess 5:3-10 are parallel scriptures, each mentioning vital information found in all three accounts. Yet, they just do not fit into the Revelation scenario at Chrsit's "RETURN"as you are attempting to portray. If there is no rapture, as Jesus Christ stated that would allow individuals "escape" from *ALL* THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS, the scriptures are then frustrated and anything goes. I just find this hard to deny.

Last of all, Paul said he was GOING UP, not to an earthly Kingdom but a heavenly one. 2 Timothy 4:18 "And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work and will preserve me unto his HEAVENLY KINGDOM: to whom be glory forever and ever, Amen." If you will check his wording carefully, "Heavenly Kingdom" (Greek EPOURANIOUS) means "above the sky" "celestial".



carrierwave      24 Oct 2012, 07:21

Hello Doug,

Below are some statements you made which I would like to comment on:

"This is why he warns in Luke 21.34, that if they fall away and become overcharged with the cares of this world, the day will come upon them when they don't expect it. They can't recognize the signs for what they are, and are deceived."

The "day" you are referring to here I assume is the 2nd coming of Jesus in Revelation 19. Again, do you honestly believe 'christian' people will even be able to be "partying", "overcharged", "drunk" and consumed with the affairs of this world when all HELL has broken loose, and Jesus is ascending in His power and great glory? It just does not add up.
Even if you put these careless 'christians' at the beginning of the Tribulation, there is *no danger* of Christ's sudden return and "COMING UNEXPECTANTLY" upon them. He will not come until chapter19! Jesus is talking about an "imminent coming" of surprise! One only needs to "count the days" after the signed "treaty" of the Anti-christ and the VERY DAY Jesus sets foot on the Mount of Olives is ALREADY KNOWN.



carrierwave      24 Oct 2012, 15:30

Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." —Luke 17:36

"Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." —Matthew 24:41

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." —1st Thessalonians 4:13-18

First of all, to deny that there is a "rapture" found in the Bible (KJV) is to blatantly deny the Word of God in the scriptures above. The NIV has taken many of these verses out already being Westcott and Hort catholic simpathizers.
The dead believers are "raised" first and living saints are "changed" to heavenly bodies like Jesus.
BOTH are "caught up" into the atmosphere to meet Christ IN THE AIR. And they shall "EVER BE WITH THE LORD.
To deny this "event" is to deny the Bible plain and simple.

If you will go to Revelation 19:1 somehow there is a great moving throng of "much PEOPLE in Heaven". How did this mighty mass of humanity get there? Notice it does not say "much SOULS in Heaven". It plainly says MUCH PEOPLE. "Souls" are people in Heaven without a glorified body as yet. The Greek is actually "spirits" (See Rev. 6:9 and 20:4) These are the spirits of tribulation saints killed by Anti-christ. They have NOT BEEN RESURRECTED TO GLORIFIED BODIES YET.
This mighty throng of people praise God for judging and destroying the GREAT WHORE/Babylonian system (chapter18) AND announce the WEDDING of the Lamb HAS COME. Note: Christ has not returned yet. If the resurrection happens as Christ returns, HOW CAN THERE A WEDDING IN HEAVEN *WITH NO BRIDE*! Jesus made it a point to outline the Book of Revelation--IT IS CHRONOLOGICAL ORDERED. To put the 1st Resurrection at the very end of the Tribulation destroys Christ's outline! (Rev. 1:19)
You will note the "BRIDE *HATH* MADE HERSELF READY" in Rev. 19:7 This event would be impossible if the resurrection of the church has NOT ALREADY TAKEN PLACE. Somehow the church managed to get to heaven for the wedding BEFORE CHRIST RETURNS! The only explanation that would fit the chronology of Rev. 1:19 would be a RAPTURE of the BRIDE. Again, to deny the Rapture is to deny the Bible 1Thess. 4:13-18.
If you will carefully read Rev. 20:4 the only resurrection that occurs at the return of Christ are the SLAIN TRIBULATION SAINTS WHO REFUSED THE MARK AND WERE *BEHEADED* for witness of Jesus and the Word of God. Notice "..and I saw the *SOULS* of them.. They have not glorified bodies yet, but notice: " ..and THEY LIVED and reigned with Christ a 1000 years". There is their resurrection! And it is the ONLY RESURRECTION MENTIONED AT THE RETURN OF JESUS CHRIST IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION. The white clothed "righteousness saints" that return with Jesus is his BRIDE which he married before he returns at the 2nd coming. Amazing how the RAPTURE MAKES MUCH MORE SENSE when you follow the chronology JESUS set forth for the Book of Revelation 1:19!



carrierwave      25 Oct 2012, 11:51

There is a statement made by John in Revelation 20:5 that those who try to cram a general resurrection of ALL the "JUST" at the very end of the Tribulation of seven years attempt to justify. Sincerely no doubt;
However, is this right? A complete Bible studied look at *ALL* of the resurrections of the "SAVED" (in which ALL members of the 1st resurrection must be part of) occurred in stages. Proof? YES!

1. Christ is the "firstfruits". "But now Christ is risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept." (the Greek is "APARCHE" which means "the beginnings of something STARTED")
This happened nearly 2000 years ago! Jesus' resurrection is the beginnings of 1st Resurrection. This is a very important truth. But there is MORE.
2. Searching the scriptures KJV carefully and chronologically you will find another resurrection closely associated with Jesus' resurrection in Matt. 27:52-53
"And the graves were opened and MANY of the bodies of the SAINTS which slept arose, And came out of the graves AFTER his resurrection, and went into the holy city and appeared unto many."
So here is another series of resurrections which were SAINTS and MUST be part of the 1st Resurrection.
3. The next group would be the Church: Those saved (dead and living)during the interval between Pentecost and the Feast of Trumpets. That long period of growing season where ripened grains are bundled in the fields to be "matured" for the harvest. (This fits so well with groups of "called out believers" gathered together for prayer and study of the scriptures and evangelization of the world.) This is described by Jesus as "the things WHICH ARE" in Revelation 1:19 in the letter to the seven churches. We are currently of that period of history without a doubt! Most pre-tribs believe Rev. 4:1-4 is known as the "rapture" of the CALLED OUT ONES at the Feast of Trumpets. This feast has been described by scholars as the feast "which no man knows" the exact day or hour. This fits like a glove with the warnings to "christians' of Matt. 24:37-39 and Luke 21:34 and other warnings given throughout the Gospels and epistles concering Jesus Christ's coming at the "RAPTURE" which is an "imminent event" and can only hold true during this time period and cannot possibly be forced into events of the 2nd Coming in Rev. 19!

4. The next resurrections are in Rev. 11:12 the TWO WITNESSES who prophesy and preach and send plagues on the unbelieving. They are finally killed by the anti-christ but 3 days later (like Jesus) were resurrected, with the familiar rapture words of Rev. 4:1-4 "COME UP HITHER"!

5. The completion of the 1st Resurrection is finalized by the "gleanings" of the main harvest of Rev. 4:1-4. This is Rev. 20:4 the resurrection of the "SOULS" (spirits) of martyred "tribulation saints". This is the only resurrection described at the 2nd Coming of Christ and is not a rapture so to speak. It clearly says ..and they LIVED and reigned with Christ 1000 years. There are NO OTHER resurrections of the JUST. It is now complete. John states "this is the first resurrection". This MUST INCLUDE every saved individual, for if you are not IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION you are not "blessed and holy" and will not escape the SECOND DEATH (lake of fire). Rev. 20:6



Doug Buckley      25 Oct 2012, 14:49

Hi carrierwave, I don't want to tell you what to believe, but please look closely at what Jesus says here about whether or not there's a rapture, and hold the rapture teachers accountable for what they've been saying.

Jesus' apostles ask him about the sign of his coming at the end of the "age" (Matthew 24.3). He then goes on to tell them the signs that will lead up to his return. He says there will be wars, earthquakes, famines, and troubles. He says these things are the beginning of birth pains in the Greek, not my words, but his words.

Rapture teachers have so completely confused people about this that they can't understand what Jesus is saying. The PAINS here are what we call the TRIBULATION. Its a series of events that lead up to Jesus' return. Jesus tells his disciples to pay attention for the birth pains of his return. Why, because before the birth comes the pains, and his return is the BIRTH.

Jesus' words are a synopsis of the whole book of Revelation. Notice how he tells his disciples, not to get deceived by the false prophets and ANTICHRIST,

"And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" (Mark 13:21-23 KJV).

Why tell them to not be deceived if they're going to be raptured? Why does Jesus tell them to take heed, if they're not going to be here during the tribulation? Why is he telling his disciples to watch for the signs of his return if they're supposed to be raptured? Please ask the people who teach rapture this.

With respect to Luke 21.34, this is clearly what Jesus is saying. That a Christian who falls back into the ways of the world won't recognize the SIGNS or birth pains for what they are. The antichrist will have his own explanations for what's going on, like Al Gore with global warming or whatever, and they're gonna buy it if they're drunk in the world before all this happens.

Luk_21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

This is the same thing Paul is talking about here, to stay sober and watch for the signs,

"But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober" (1 Thessalonians 5:4-6 KJV).

Again worldly Christians are in darkness because they're not watching for the signs. The Day of the Lord comes as a surprise on the world because the world doesn't know what to watch for. However, if Jesus was gonna rapture people at any moment there would be nothing to watch for.

You quoted a certain scripture, "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" —Luke 17:36

This is exactly my point about how the rapture proponents take things out of context. Churches tell people this verse is about the rapture. The people get all happy that they're gonna be the one taken, except the one taken is deceived by the antichrist.

"Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the BODY is, thither will the EAGLES be gathered together" (Luke 17:36-37 KJV).

Look this up in the Greek, because the word body has one meaning, it means corpse. Also the word for eagle can be inclusive of vultures. In other words, Jesus is saying that the deceived ones gather like vultures to the antichrist.

"Mat_24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not."

Please ask the rapturists about this, and see what their reaction is. This should completely ruin the rapture teachers credibility, but people just want rapture and don't seem to care.

1st Thessalonians 4 is another example of verses being misused to support rapture. Notice, the angel makes a shout, or war cry in the Greek. Why, because Jesus is returning with the clouds AFTER the tribulation. He gathers his elect and goes to battle against the beast at the last trumpet. That's why the the elect MEET him in the air.

"Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven"

As far as the resurrection and Revelation 19 and 20, I don't see how this supports rapture. The souls or spirits of the saints in heaven along with the ones who are alive and remain on earth are changed into glorified bodies when Jesus returns (which is what 1st Thessalonians 4 is about). Until Jesus returns they're only betrothed to him. This is why he tells the souls in heaven to rest until the time comes.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Jesus purchases the bride with his blood, and provided she stays pure, (doesn't fall away or worship the antichrist), he will receive her to him at his return. This also includes all the saints in heaven, ie those that sleep. As Revelation tells us, there are two resurrections, one when Jesus returns and then another after the millennium (I go over this in detail in the risen from the dust link at the top).

Doug Buckley      25 Oct 2012, 14:55

One of the problems here is how literally you read the book of Revelation. The book of Revelation has alot of symbolism.

The book of Revelation is mostly a vision of the future given to John. John writes down this vision in detail. The basic chronology is true, and matches up with Jesus' description of the tribulation in the olivette discourse. But like alot of prophecy the vision has information and details in it that are given through symbolism.

For example, will Jesus literallly harvest the earth with a sickle and put people in a giant press so that there is a lake of blood for over a hundred miles? Will Jesus literally return on an armored horse with sword in his mouth. We he fight with a sword? In fact, other accounts of Jesus' return say he will cleanse the earth with fire. Will there be a giant beast that literally rises out of the sea and takes over the world, with seven heads and ten crowns? Will people literally see locust like creatures attacking them, or is this more a reference to invisible demonic spirits? Will the antichrist have two literal horns coming out of his head? Will the angels be burning people with fire, or could this be some kind of radiation?

Of course no one agrees on how exactly to interpret Revelation, and how literally it should be taken. There's definitely going to plagues and disasters, but just like the Egyptians refused to believe, so will the world. Revelation says they refuse to repent.

carrierwave      25 Oct 2012, 17:43


The Book of Revelation is special. John says it carries with it promises and blessings that no other book in the Bible has claimed.

"Blessed is he that readeth and they that hear the words, and keepeth those things which are written therein: for the TIME is at hand." (Rev1:3)

Reading and hearing the WORDS and keeping those things written in it insures the blessing of it. I am sorry for your flippant attitude of Book of Revelation and the WORDS and those things written in it. You criticize "rapture teachers" who don't understand things as well as you do, but you yourself admit and hold at best a big question mark (?) over any interpretation of it, except your own of course. As I stated, Jesus gives the outline to the whole book and you have not even acknowledged the order which HE, JESUS laid-out plainly and in my opinion you ignore his instructions on how to it is structured. What else can be said of your approach to the book? That is why you are not getting blessed by it.
Most important, the parts of it which you claim show the RESURRECTION OF ALL THE SAINTS does not include that information AT ALL. You won't acknowledge the actual WORDS that palinly show that ONLY the martyred tribulation saints were caused to LIVE; Rev. 20:4 those "beheaded" because they would not take the mark or worship the beast, but had the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God. THAT IS THE ONLY RESURRECTION at the 2nd Coming, yet you won't aknowledge the WORDS that say it. Your only defense of your position is, and I quote:

"Of course no one agrees on how exactly to interpret Revelation, and how literally it should be taken."

That is just plainly false and a rather simplistic solution when you get in a tight spot and can't respond scripturally. You may as well say this about everything you have noted. The J.W.s use that very tactic about Luke 16 about hell. Just "spiritualize" the text and you won't have to deal with it, maybe it will "go away". "Man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

There is no reason to not take Revelation literally--John reported what he saw. If something is symbolic it will tell you so or the imagery is obvious to the reader and somtimes explained is later! Just because Jesus has a sharp sword coming out of his mouth is no reason to deny His 2nd coming! lol! However everything I noted in Revelation has been presented as literal WORDS and actual text.

The rest of your comments I believe I have already discussed using scripture, especially the warnings that Christ would "imminently return" upon those wayward believers at the beginning of the tribulation, which is IMPOSSIBLE scripturally, and because you do not even believe in ANY imminent return of Jesus to begin with! Note what the actual WORDS ARE THAT JESUS SAID. Was Jesus lying when he said he would come on them unawares? He was saying he would come them WHILE they were doing there sinful acts, NOT 18 chapters later at HIS RETURN, lol!

Have a good day!


carrierwave      25 Oct 2012, 22:43

"The Last Trump" Paul and John vision in Revelation.

The Apostle Paul wrote about the “last” trumpet DECADES BEFORE John saw the SEVEN “judgment trumpets” of the Revelation. The Apostle Paul’s “last trump” was written in 60 A.D. John’s vision came 30+ years later--around 96 A.D. The Apostle Paul could NOT have known about the 7th and “last trumpet” of Revelation--BEFORE it was revealed to John on the isle of Patmos! It is more likely that the last trumpet of the FEAST OF TRUMPETS would fit the scriptures. Even so, there are many trumpets to be blown after the 2nd Coming, especially during the millennium, when the trumpet will sound for monthly andd annual festivals that will be celebrated.

carrierwave      27 Oct 2012, 19:02

Here is an interesting point to ponder.
Hymaneus and Philetus, false teachers, were spreading ERROR and "overthrowing the faith of many", saying the "resurrection" was past and the tribulation and 2nd coming were at hand. A post-trib view is saying to christians the TRIBULATION is at AT HAND and the RESURRECTION will NOT HAPPEN until AFTER THE 2nd COMING.
It is pretty obvious this theology does not match what the early church were taught by Paul because he told them "NOT TO BE SOON SHAKEN IN MIND". However post-trib proponents are telling us just the opposite!

Jermaine Young      16 Nov 2012, 07:44

The rapture is a false teaching,examine how they formulate this doctrine!They peice-meal dozens of scriptures,taken then all out of context and the original meaning to get to this conclustion.Its not by accident that the book of Revelation says nothing about the rapture or the concept of it! The present so-called church is in such a state of apostacy (Falling-away).thats when the phophecies of Revelation takes place,there will be only a few bible following christians left."Like the days of Noah"Revelation really only promises the saftey of 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israelfrom the plagues Yahshua prayed to Yahweh for the church to be kept from evil not to be taken from this world.If a un-biblical doctrine like the rapture existed, that means Yahshua would be returning three times instead of two.the bible says every eye will see Him.Thats why every teacher of this doctrine has to quote dozens of unrelated scripture,plus bring out charts and illustrationsThis so-called biblical doctrine was invented in the early 1800's by a Scottish woman named Mary or Margerat Macdonald and then spread by a local fundementalist pastor.They read Revelations,got scared (which they should be,but only to turn to true worship) made this vision up to calm there fears instead of seeking Yahweh for the truth,but this teaching only gives false hope to so-called christians who are'nt serving Yahweh in truth and spirit.They dont even relize all the false teachings they have accepted in the modern church!The bible clearly teaches that the Lord's worship is very specific and He wont be worshipped any way men wont to worship Him! So many will think there christians,but there not.Sadly when people set there minds to believe something,even if it clearly violates scripture and sound doctrine,you can hardly change there minds.They basically reject the bible for myths of men.An a little side note the bible teaches that the angels will execute Yahweh's wrath not un-clean spirits (200 million)even the angels who are bound at the Euphrates are called angels not demons.Yahweh uses 2 other parties to deliver his judgements angels and men.Example the angel in the old testament who killed the Assyrian kings army and the Israelites.The 3 un-clean spirits referenced in Revelations come from the mouths of the 2 Beasts and the False Prophet.Yahweh dosent use demons to inact His judgement.their's a difference between Hades and the pit.Hades is place of the dead,the pit or abyss is the place of un-clean spirits.People confuse hades and hell place of torment or lake of fire.Because if people who are sinners were already being tormented why does Revelations say the Beast and False Prophet will be the first cast-in,and everybody will be judged at the end.I'm going only by the scriptures and Holy Spirit and scriptual logic!Bottom line be weary of false teachings and doctrines that contridict the bible.The bible says the Holy Spirit will teach about all things,this is talking about the subject of false teachings 1 book of John's letter to the church.Theres only one interpretation of scripture for every single word in the bible.Men have been for so long interpreting the bible in there own understanding thats why there so many denominations,when we as christians are commanded to be ONE.Everybody who claims to have the Holy Spirit dose not sad to say.I could write a book on all the ways the modern church has fell from true christianity.Alot of people will read this and say who are you to critisize the modern church,my answer to this is a man who believes he was called by Yahweh to teach the truth about the present state of christianity!!

Robert      22 Jan 2013, 23:00

Thank you again Bro Doug
Special thanks to all who did a post, I want you to know I enjoyed what each had to say, and some good points were said for and againce the Rapture.
At one time I was a post trib,mid trib and now a pre trib, and I do believe in the Rapture. I find when some scriptures are taken outta context in the Olivet Discourse Matt, chap 24 and 25, it will make the Rapture of the church off base. I had trouble with thoes two chapters also at one time. After I started teaching Sunday School, I wanned to know that I was doing my best to give the right information from the Bible. Not from what people say or what I hear on TV, youtube and ect. To make a long story short, I went to the Christian book store, to look for help for understanding and I found the King James Study Bible 1998. I looked at all the contributing editors and its a long list, that made this bible and information possible. At the bottom of each page, you will find info on each scripture, like what where and when and ect. Later I still wasn't happy, so I bought another and this time the NLT Life Application study bible. You know what!!! a different bunch of editors but say the same thing are have the same meanning. The NLT is so easy to read and understand, but I still go back to the KJV and check. For sure there will be a Rapture before the trib and i think God I won't be here, even if I'm still alive when that day comes. We have so much to be thankful for,,,, God Bless and tks Bro Doug for allowing me to post,,lovessssss robert

carrierwave      23 Jan 2013, 09:58

God bless your study, Robert!

You are on the right track, especially always checking in on the KJV as your prime English authority. I am not of the "extreme" KJV only, but every time it seems the KJV clear-away the mire! The NIV has butchered the texts, and have to "change the text" each time a new and improved NIV comes along!

God bless you again!


bill m      16 Feb 2013, 22:25

God Bless you carrierwave

Jack      10 Jun 2013, 15:14

Great article, but there are some BIG things to think about:

1) City of Sodom - 'Would you destroy the city if 10 righteous....' God said 'no' - His CHARACTER has always shown he does not destroy the wicked with the righteous - every single time (Lot, Noah), he has raptured his saints

2) Book of Revelation - the church is 'absent' from Chapters 3 - 24. Where are they?

3) The people answering make those who believe in 'Rapturos' like we're dolts - you're calling Billy Graham, Vernon McGee, Charles Stanley, my own pastor - dolts? Be careful about slandering those in the ministry like myself - that will not wash easy with our Lord and Savior.

Doug Buckley      13 Jun 2013, 03:51

Hi Jack, you make some points that are commonly made in favor of rapture.

Often times Christians cite God's character as evidence of rapture; that he wouldn't allow the church to go through any kind of tribulation. One should consider all of the prophets and apostles that God allowed to be martyred for his Word and testimony. In fact, John maybe the only apostle that survived to old age.

Yes its true that there are examples of saints being "raptured" in the scripture. However, both Enoch and Elijah were "raptured" after they had testified or endured tribulation. Elijah was on the run for years and living in the wilderness when God took him. If anything this better supports a post trib rapture.

Of course consider that God sent his entire nation into captivity, because they had turned away from him. Trials and temptations purify the righteous, yet the church has become so narcissistic they think they deserve to be raptured away.

Both Noah and Lot are described in the New Testament as examples of God delivering the righteous from the Day of the Lord, and the fire of his wrath (2nd Peter 2). This is after the tribulation. The wicked reign during the tribulation, just like in Sodom and in Noah's time. In fact. the two angels who delivered Lot are types for the two witnesses who will be here during the tribulation.

As far as the church being absent, it's not. Revelation 12.17 describes Christians going into the wilderness for three and a half years. The seven churches who received the prophecy aren't named again, but then the tribulation didn't happen in their time.

As per your last point. I'm sorry you feel that way, but I refer you to Jermaine's post about the historical context and origin of the rapture doctrine. From Augustine to Calvin, no one believed in rapture. It's a modern trend. Rapture has been ripped apart so many times by different scholars, but they are generally ignored because the church wants rapture.

Rose      13 Mar 2014, 18:22

The ones who are alive will be the 144,000, Jesus said .. the only flesh that would be saved. It doesn't matter what other people believe, listen to the words of Christ. "Yea let God be true and every man a liar. If Jesus didn't say he would rapture people out, then it aint happening. Rose

Rose      13 Mar 2014, 18:23

Jesus took special care to let John know in Chapter 7 of Revelation that there is a difference between the ELECT who will be SEALED, and the SAINTS who will be KILLED.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Jesus was talking to the JEWS

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. ONLY THE ELECT WILL LIVE. All other flesh will die.

The ones who don't take the mark of the beast will be killed by Satan. Revelation 13:6,7 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations...

and the ones who do take the mark will be killed by God. Revelation 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

carrierwave      14 Mar 2014, 10:02

"Yes its true that there are examples of saints being "raptured" in the scripture. However, both Enoch and Elijah were "raptured" after they had testified or endured tribulation. Elijah was on the run for years and living in the wilderness when God took him. If anything this better supports a post trib rapture."

It is a fact that true Christians throughout history have suffered (“tribulation” as you put it) and have been either killed or “raptured” as part of the "race" God has prepared for EACH ONE. However the time frame in which we are focusing is much different than the history of “trials and troubles” of all saints who have lived since Adam.

In the case of Enoch and Elijah, both men have prophetic significance during the 'end times' (the time of Jacobs trouble) Jer. 30:7 I think however it is a mistake to use Elijah as an example of a post “rapture” proof text simply because he had his troubles during his ministry then “raptured” out. First of all the story of Elijah’s “rapture” found in 2Kings 2:1-11, was preceded by the greatest spiritual VICTORIES of his career, not his failure of “fleeing” in the wilderness from his troubles and “tribulations”!

He had defeated Jezebel and Ahab and destroyed attempts on his life from King Ahaziah and his soldiers. In 2Kings 2:1, just prior to his, “rapture” we find Elijah was pretty much at peace and ease now resuming his training ministry of Elisha and “school of the prophets”. He was airlifted via “whirlwind” to God at the pinnacle of success, not defeat and troubles! There is simply no evidence that Elijah’s “rapture” resembles a post-trib rapture or “resurrection” when you properly read the scriptures. That is the problem with most post-trib conclusions--ignoring anything and everything that does not fit the view, focusing on half-truths and ignoring the rest.

Enoch does however fit the pre-trib view quite well however, whom you did not discuss at all (ignored)! Enoch even prophesied “Behold Lord cometh WITH ten thousands of His saints,” Jude 1:14. Here Enoch predicted the “bride” (church) coming with the Lord Jesus to take judgment on the wicked at the END of the tribulation. How fitting! Prefect harmony with Rev. 19 the “great throng” in Heaven and the announcement of the “heavenly wedding” of the Lamb’s wife in “white linen” and coming WITH the Lord Jesus on horseback! Enoch is seen as the one who “pleased God” and was translated (Heb. 11:5).

Enoch was the father of the “oldest man” on earth, Methuselah whose very name was WARNING of coming judgment JUST BEFORE THE FLOOD! Enoch is a picture of the “church” being removed BEFORE judgment came. Another clear picture and example of the pre-trib rapture being ignored by post-trib advocates.


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