the cup of wraththe cup of wraththe cup of wrath


Shortening of the Tribulation Days

"In the first tribulation do you believe there will be a 42 month period when the first beast (political/religious) will exist, and then Satan will come on the scene for the last 42 months, which has actually been shortened to a 5 month period?", (Question from Dewayne Short).

I believe that there will first be a league of nations, that will become the first beast with the arrival of the "little horn" of Daniel 7. The "little horn" will be a political leader who will be born of woman, and his rise to power will trigger the start of the 7 year tribulation period. However, his goal of a one world government will be resisted and initially fail. This initial defeat of the one world government is the deadly wound described in Revelation.

Then Satan will arrive on the scene at 42 months (3.5 years) in, and "resurrect" this one world government (see Revelation 13). He will ultimately succeed at establishing it, because he is supernatural and God will allow him to deceive the nations, uniting them all under the mark and system of the beast. The arrival of Satan at 42 months in will begin the great deception, during which the true Christians are going to have to flee to the hills, and wait for Jesus' return.

The second half of the tribulation period has not been shortened in terms of its length, but will be a full 42 months. The shortening of this period refers to when Jesus says, "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days" (Mark 13.20 KJV bible). This "shortening of the days", refers to the supernatural ending of the great deception by Christ's physical return at 42 months into the 2nd period. So the entire tribulation will be a full seven year period, divided in half, and brought to a close by the return of Jesus Christ.


stephen      13 Nov 2009, 15:12

The tribulation is acually for 42 months, not 7 years. I have seen a video about this from a great pastor who explains how the 7 year tribulation came into the church. The tribulation is 42 months

Doug Buckley      14 Nov 2009, 14:35

Are there any particular verses he uses to support a 42 month tribulation period?

Jane Christy      17 Nov 2010, 17:50

There are verses which support the 7 years tribulation but 42 months,?oh wow this is a new and serious claim against the word of God. Must be very careful with this.

Lisa Wade      20 Dec 2010, 17:04

I thought it was shorten to 5 1/2 months because no man would have been saved from the beast???? And does happen during the locus days, May - Sept??

Doug Buckley      20 Dec 2010, 17:37

Hi Lisa, Arnold Murray (bless his heart) says that the tribulation of antichrist will be a five month period. I really don't know where he gets this from. The only scripture that describes a shortening is Mark 13.20, and this is just a reference to Christ ending the tribulation period. I don't see how all the things that are supposed to happen could happen within five months. So I think the so-called tribulation will be a seven year period, divided into two 42 month periods. - God bless

Jane Christy      20 Dec 2010, 19:26

I believe it's a 7 years tribulation.

Mary Schulze      10 Mar 2011, 12:03

Doug you are correct about the 5 month tribulation. Revelations 9:5 talks about Satan's return being shortened to 5 months. It will happen during the time of the locusts which occurs during the two feast days Penetcost (in May) and the Feast of Tabernacles (September). Mark 13:20 discusses why the time is shortened - it is for the elect's sake else no flesh would be saved. We have to remember Satan is very charismatic and a great pretender. He's a "scriptural lawyer" and is going to deceive as many as he possibly can. So glad to know other folks are looking into the Word.

Lisa Wade      02 Apr 2011, 17:51

Mary are you saying Doug is correct or incorrect? Arnold Murray is where I am hearing this 5 1/2 month tribulation from too. That ya'll for getting back with me about this!

Doug Buckley      09 Apr 2011, 15:51

Revelation is the last great prophecy given to man, and it describes a seven year tribulation period made up of two 3.5 year periods. I don't see a basis for the idea that the tribulation has been shortened to 6 months.

Lisa Wade      12 Apr 2011, 12:38

Does anyone think we are in the tribulation now?

David      06 May 2011, 14:13

5 months--read for urself--if u don't understand just keep it in mind so as it happens u will recognize it--why argue--if we differ it is the way it was designed

Doug Buckley      07 May 2011, 01:23

Revelation says that the plague of the locust army lasts 5 months, "And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man" (Revelation 9.5 KJV bible). However, I believe this plague to be only a part of the seven year tribulation period.

Meagan      09 May 2011, 20:56

Doug, what you just said is why some people (Arnold Murray too) thinks why it was shorten to 5 1/2 months from 7 years. I dont know what the truth is. If it is 7 years, I think we are in the tribulation.

Chris Lang      25 May 2011, 12:39

I believe the 5 month period you are referring to is not Tribulation. There is only a 3.5 year period of Tribulation. Referenced numerously by 1290 days, 3 and one half years and Time (one year) Times (two years) Half a time (.5 years).

There is no reference anywhere in the bible to a to a 7 year tribulation. It is the Abomination of Desolation spoken in Daniel, Matthew, Thes, and Rev that starts the Tribulation.

We are NOT in Tribulation now. A few things have to take place first. Israel has to sign a peace treaty with the world (Dan) that allows them to rebuild the temple and then the Abomination of desolation has to occur. Dan 7, Mat 24, 2 thes 2.

Rev 9 is not referring to the Anti Christ it clearly says it is a King. His name in Hebrew is(T) Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.[b] This is Literally translated to "The Destroyer" A King called the Destroyer. The word Abaddon is Hebrew for "the destroyer." The word Apollyon is Greek for "the destroyer." Two Bible translations actually translate this passage "the destroyer" There is a King called the destroyer. His Name is Saddam. Saddam in Arabic is literally translated to the Destroyer, His name was given to him by his Mother. Story is she almost died during pregnancy and gave her son the name “Saddam.” Doctors advised her to have an abortion but she endured the pregnancy and gave her baby the name of Saddam which literally means the desrtoyer

The 5 month period you are referring to I believe could be the first gulf war. It lasted 5 monthes and it was with a King literally called the destroyer.
The prophecy states that the leader over the army that would cause the sun and the air to be darkened by smoke would be called "the destroyer." During the Kuwait crisis, the sun was blotted out for three months, and again the name Saddam literally means "the destroyer."

The next Trumpet is the 6th Trumpet war that destroys a 3rd of mankind. This can happen any day and most will happen before the start of Tribulation. The 6th Trumpet War is not Armageddon.

In regards to the 7 year period, I think people misunderstand the 3.5 year covenant that Israel signs with the world. THis is not Tribulation. Tribulation (Satans Wrath) begins when the Man of lawlessness is revealed at the time of Abomination of Desolation.

This is not to start an argument or make or point out wrongs but to encourage everyone who has questions to search the truth in scriptures in totality. We will all need to know so we can be prepared to endure.


David      25 May 2011, 13:03

well we know GOD said it was shortened -- now study for urself and be happy with what ever u decide--just beware so as it happens u will know truth--again GOD told us it was shortened--believe HIM or not

CHRIS LANG      25 May 2011, 13:14

Maybe I am unclear of you thought. Can you show me the scripture you are referring to. There is Scripture that says the shortening of days (time) but not specifically to a 5 month period.

dAVID      25 May 2011, 15:01


Doug Buckley      26 May 2011, 19:54

The bible doesn't define any period of time that we are supposed to call the tribulation period. The term tribulation period is basically a made up term.

Revelation 13.5 says that the deadly wound will be healed and the beast will have power for 42 months. That's 3.5 old testament years. That means that the beast receives the deadly wound before the 42 months. I don't know the exact breakdown, but the beast is already trying to take over the world, and there is war before the 3.5 year period.

Daniel 9.27 says that the so called antichrist (which is the wrong term, but whatever) will confirm a covenant with many for one week, which is interpreted as seven years. This begins his rise to power, which is over a seven year "tribulation period". That's my opinion

DAVID      26 May 2011, 20:32

ur still forgetting-GOD said HE shortened the time.
believe HIM or not--study and see if u can figure it out--if not just know that the fake comes before the REAL DEAL

chris LANG      26 May 2011, 20:33

Tribulation is not a made up term and is described as a 3.5 period. Daniels 7 year period is when Israel signs the peace treaty but this is not Tribulation but a 7 year period. Tribulation starts at the time of abomination desolation spoken by Daniel, Jesus, Paul, and John

Mat 24 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days

Mark 242" But in those days, after that tribulation the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Rev 7:14, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The Bible clearly gives a time frame for Tribulation. 3.5 years.

Dan 7:25 He shall speak words against the Most High,
 and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,
 and shall think to change the times and the law;
and they shall be given into his hand
for a time, times, and half a time.

Rev 13 5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months

Rev 12 - 13 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time ((3.5 year tribulation) time =1 year, times = 2 years. Half a time = half a year

Rev 12 -5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for) 1,260 days

The referenced beast with a mortal wound is the leopard with 4 heads. (See Daniel) These beasts described in Daniel and Rev are Governments/ Countries. It is one of the Governments that appeared to have a mortal wound but its mortal wound was healed.

The question is are there 3 governments on earth today that fit Daniels Prophecy. These must be on earth at the time for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

The Beasts (Governments) are
Leopard (with 4 heads)

Are there Countries or Governments known by these animals and the answer is yes.

Leopard which has 4 heads and one has a deadly wound = Germany, 1 reich, 2 reich , 3rd reich and then the birth of the 4th reich

Bear = Russia

Lion = England

David      26 May 2011, 20:37

ok --no one seems to care about GOD STATING HE SHORTENED THE SEASON--if HE said it--it must tell u somewhere in scripture what HE shortened it to--good luck in ur studies

C lang      26 May 2011, 20:46

I do care, the shortening of days is clearly a good discussion and yes God will shorten the days ( I believe this is actually the speeding up of time, thus shortening the days) however the reference to 5 months in the 5 trumpet is taken out of context in the totality of prophecy. You cannot explain away every reference to 3.5 years to the 5th trumpet which most likely already happened. Yes we are now awaiting the 6 trumpet war that kills 1/3 on mankind.

David      26 May 2011, 20:49

i never mentioned the 5th trump and not sure where that came from --but if u can't see the 5 months in scripture--don't worry

chris Lang      26 May 2011, 20:53

A David posted on top Rev 9 where 3 times 5 months was given. This is the 5th Trump.


Doug Buckley      26 May 2011, 21:53

Chris, I didn't say that the word tribulation isn't used, but the bible doesn't define the tribulation of the end as being a certain amount of years.

Think about this for a minute. If the the one world government or beast has power over the world for 42 months, then how can there be global war, as described by the first and second horsemen. Global war means people are fighting, not global unity under the mark of the beast. The first horsemen goes forth to conquer, and then comes war, as Revelation 6 explains. It doesn't all fit into a 42 month period. IMO it makes sense to refer to the seven years as the tribulation period.

David, as I explain at the top, my opninon is that the shortening refers to Christ's return. In other words, the beast and persecution or tribulation would go on till no Christians are left alive, except for Christ's return (Mark 13.20).

Chris       26 May 2011, 23:21

Thanks for the follow up and I enjoy hearing thoughts so do not take this as argumentative but for me it is as Pauls say's staying awake. I think we have some different view points so I will write some of my beliefs and lets wait and see's to articulate the difference

I think we are given a timeline for Tribulation. When the Anti Christ, Son of Perdition, The lawless one is revealed (abomination desolation) the 3.5 year clock begins. If you look at the passages above it will outline the time.

I know this is contrary to the traditional teachings especially when it comes to pretrib - post trib which has a 7 year Tribulation but that just does not exist in scripture.

The one world government will be the vehicle but it will be lead by the Anti Christ and False Prophet. We know from scripture that not every country will fall under the reign of the AC and there will be opposition. He will be revealed at the time of Abomination Desolation. See Mat 24-15 2 thes 1-12 & Dan 11 31-35

I believe the 4 horses are already loose and are 4 spirits. The horses are not described as a single war but as death and destruction which may be continuous. They could be still loose during tribulation but not sure.

White - Catholicism White is official color (potential false prophet) Catholics believe there will be an evil Pope. Interesting enough, it was predicted to be the 112 Pope and we are at 111.

Red - Communism/socialism

Black - Captialism

Pale was originally Cloros - Ashen (green) - Islam's Official Color. Currently Islam is estimated to be 24% of world population ( read the horseman again)

The 7 Seals parallel Trumps and the 7 Bowls. We know this by the last trump and last seal.

I believe we are waiting for the 6 trumpet war. In my opinion this will happen before Tribulation and may be the catalyst for the peace treaty with Israel (opinion only but I am a wait and see person)

Yes there will be peace and security for everyone who takes the mark during tribulation. The warnings are not for the unsaved but for the Saints. There will not be peace for the Saints. The Church will be here. When you think about it, it should be called Tribulation of the Saints.
In Daniel when he talks about the Abomination Desolation

Dan 31-32 Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate (Abomination Desolation). He shall seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant, but the people who know their God shall stand firm and take action. 33 And the wise among the people shall make many understand, though for some days they shall stumble by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder.

So we are here at the time of the revealing of the Anti Christ as it says those people who know their God will stand firm and take action. This is the start of the Tribulation that Jesus says
Mat 24:21 "For then there will be great tribulation such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now." Read 15-28 for context

The Anti Christ has 42 months, 1290 days, Time, Times, Half a Time.

As with everything please search scripture and not take my abbreviated thoughts without verifying in the Word.

Meagan      27 May 2011, 00:34

I thought Israel sign the peace treaty in 195...7 or around that time and that generation will not die of old age. I fear that I will not learn what it is I need to before our Lord comes back. I do know for a fact that the fake will come before Christ and alot of people will be tricked! The 6 trumpet war that kills 1/3 on mankind, will that be in fact war that will kill 1/3?

david      27 May 2011, 08:01

don't know where the person got 5 months ans 5th trump--it is obvious that can't be --but the 5th trump has started the swarm of the islamic army--or swarm of locust.
when that swarm reaches the 4th stage of it's life then u will see the 5 months start
best wishes to all in their pursuit for truth--

David      27 May 2011, 08:05

remember the 6th trump is when the 2nd beast--satan-- takes power--the death of the 1/3 is spiritual death--following satan--satan is playing the roll of CHRIST --spiritual death is the key

Meagan      27 May 2011, 14:18

Ok I think this is what was told to me is that the generation of when Israel became a state will not die of old age..anyone heard of this? Does anyone know when Israel planing on rebuild the temple on the temple mount? any talks in the news about that and the peace treaty???

Doug Buckley      27 May 2011, 15:16

I'm fixing and reposting Chris' last post...

Chris      27 May 2011, 15:19

Israel has not signed the peace treaty with the world spoken of in Daniel. You will know it is the peace treaty when they rebuild the temple on the temple mount. It will be under a sharing arrangement with the world. They will be able to resume animal sacrifices.

The 6th trumpet war will kill 1/3 of mankind. We know it starts at the mouth of the Euphrates River which is the Turkey Iraq region whee we currently have our troops.

I agree with you. A lot of people will be tricked and that is why the Church needs to be in sound doctrine. I believe the pre-trib theory will leave many believers perplexed and off guard to endure as the bible teaches. Jesus said many will fall away

Mat 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Be encouraged. Prophecy is God's gift to us so we can know HE is God and in control.

David      27 May 2011, 17:29

Israel is not the land of Israel--Israel is the 10 scattered tribes--when GOD refers to Israel--it is the 10 scattered tribes--if He is talking about the land HE specifies--Judah and the fake tribe is in the land of Israel--When Satan comes back--the people who know the truth leave the city of Judah--
they prepare for they know the time is short for CHRIST to return and HE levels Judah when HE returns.
Much of the strength of the people ISRAEL is in USA ENGLAND_ CANADA and other free nations that follow GOD-- oh well now i may be getting to deep so i will stop

Marilyn Nave      24 Jul 2011, 11:30

Hi all,
just jumping in here because this subject is fascinating and I love dividing the Word of God to it's joint and marrow...

after reading these posts, here are my thoughts for you to ponder:

the "great tribulation" is referenced by Jesus in Matthew and Revelation and in His conversation, He is describing some horrific events. He uses the term "great" as a descriptor following the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place....basically, setting himself up as a god. Jesus is referring back to Daniel's prophecy for timing. A side note is that the word tribulation is used elsewhere in scripture and certainly means trouble. However this time it is used, it is called "great".
To see what the timeline is, we go back to Daniel. Daniel 9 describes a timeline of 70 weeks. 69 of the weeks have been actual blocks of 7 years or 69x7 that have already happened in history. Therefore, the 70th or last week would also be 1 block or 1x7, or 7 years. The peace treaty is "confirmed" or "reaffirmed" at this time meaning it's already been in place but not active. Daniel 9:26 says in the middle of the week, "abominations he (prince that shall come) shall make desolate" which corresponds to the verse in Matthew that Jesus was quoted. So what is our clue? In the middle of a 7 yr period of time, this event happens (abomination that causes desolation or standing as god in the temple) which triggers the "great tribulation".
Now, how do we know how long the great tribulation lasts? Well, we know it's approximately half of 7, somewhere around 3.5 yrs. In Dan 12, he asks the angel how long this lasts and the answer is "time, times and an half" (vs7) for the "time of trouble" to end.(vs1) At the end of chap 12, he confirms the days to be 1290, which is 3.5 years plus 1 month.
We could get into a discussion what that extra month means but it would only be speculation. I'm thinking it could be talking about a lunar year for the Jewish calendar where a month is added to get the seasons back on track.
Revelation 11 mentions "42 months" is the period where the gentiles trample the holy city. This corresponds with Daniel 9 also where "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary". (v26) Revelation 12 also mentions that the woman is nourished for "time, times and half a time" where she flees from the dragon.
Because all of these passages describe the same events, and since they intentionally mention the same reference of time, we can safely conclude that the "great tribulation" that Jesus was talking about both in Matthew and Revelation is about approx 3.5yrs or 42 months or 1260-1290 days depending on how the add'l 30 days are calculated.
The "great tribulation" could not mean 5 months. The only reference to a 5 month period of time at the end of the age is the 5th trumpet. We cannot jump to conclusions about Noah's time and accurately interpret Revelation based on Genesis. Neither can we say that all the rest of scripture that references the 3.5 yrs are now null and void because Jesus says He shortened the days. Remember, Jesus said He shortened the days so that the elect would survive! This means that people are dying during the time Jesus is referencing. During the 5th trumpet, "men will seek death but death will elude them" and the locusts did not have power to kill but only to torture those without the seal of God on their foreheads for 5 months. Therefore, if no one is dying during this horrible 5 month period and you conclude that the "great tribulation" is only this 5 month period of time, then Jesus' statement would not make any sense. For Jesus to have shortened the days to allow His elect to survive, He must be talking about shortening the days when and while the elect are dying or martyred. Jesus must be saying that before this event of the "great tribulation" unfolds, His Father has already determined that the days will be short. Satan only has a little time to mess with creation...3.5 yrs, 42months, 1260ish days

Marilyn      24 Jul 2011, 11:58

me again,

As to the question on whether or not we are in the 70th week of Daniel already, here are my thoughts:

The 70th week starts with confirming a treaty of peace I mentioned this in my last post that the treaty talked about is a treaty already in place but not active. At the beginning of the 7 yr period, it becomes active. This will allow a temple to be rebuilt. We know this because Jesus references the temple when He talks about the last days, Paul mentions this temple in his letter to the Thessalonians, Daniel certainly references the temple as well. Isaiah prophecies a time when the Jews are gathered back to their homeland and they reinstitute the law. They will be sacrificing in the newly rebuilt temple when the abomination of desolation occurs and puts an end to the sacrifice, mid week. Remember in Jewish law, only the Levitical priests could make atonement and only in the place that God chose for His Name to reside. The Jews who do not accept Messiah as the fulfillment of prophecy, will go back to their old covenant sacrificial system after this temple is rebuilt. This will be displeasing to God. He says in Isaiah 66 that He will bring upon them (His people) what they dread "because when I called, none did answer".

So.......... somewhere between the convenant reaffirmation (beginning of 7yr week) and the mid week point (great tribulation commences with abomination of desolation), the temple must be in place and functioning. In case we have missed the politics of the peace treaty being confirmed in the news, we certainly could not miss the occupiers of the temple mount at this time are not Jewish. I have no idea how long it would take to build a temple but the site would have to change hands somehow and for that to happen there would have to be a war and then a peace treaty.

Doug Buckley      24 Jul 2011, 15:30

Hi Marilyn, thank you for contributing. You've clearly put some thought into the tribulation period.

As to the issue of the tribulation period, we know that word tribulation is used with respect to the period right before the end of the world. However, the bible never really defines it as the second half of the 7 yrs. Does the bible mean tribulation for the elect, or more generally tribulation for everyone? We know that nation will rise against nation before the abomination of desolation is set up. So I think you and others are right about a 3.5 yr or 42 month tribulation period, but the bible doesn't absolutely define a "tribulation period" of 42 months.

(This isn't directed at you, but its where the conversation was headed anyways).

I know what you're saying about the temple and sacrifice is what just about every evangelical church seems to teach. I do know that Jesus said, he would destroy and raise up the temple in three days. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah sent to the Jews and Israel for restoration back to God by salvation from sin. Gentiles just happen to be included. The idea that God would make a different covenant with Jewish nonbelievers, sanctify a new temple, and bring back animal sacrifice is to me a blatant heresy.

On the other hand the bible clearly says that the abomination of desolation will stand in the holy place and also take away the daily offering. I think this simply means that he will stand in the place of Christ spiritually as the counterfeit messiah.

I don't have it all worked out but in Hebrews Paul says, "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water" (Hebrews 10.19-22 KJB bible).

marilyn      24 Jul 2011, 20:08

Jesus refers to the abomination of desolation being the event that proceeds the "great tribulation". See Matthew 24:15 He also tells us that it is the event that Daniel spoke of. (also Matthew 24:15) That is why I went to the book of Daniel. Jesus directed His audience there in Matthew 24 so we are directed there to get clarity and understanding. The abomination of desolation was also spoken of in Daniel, hence Jesus' reference to it. The timeline is part of Daniel's prophecy. That is why the timeline is tied to the "great tribulation" that Jesus is speaking about in Matthew.

As to the temple, clearly there is a temple in place or 3 different men would not have spoken of it, One being God, Himself. I did not say there was sacrificing going on, Isaiah did and Daniel did. Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

This same passage a few verses down speaks of this timeframe. 8Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment?

And Daniel also spoke of the sacrifices 8:13, 9:27, 11:31, 12:11. It makes sense to me that the Jews looking for Messiah will begin again where they left off. They must do this to follow the Torah.

Another tidbit of information: about 6 months ago we heard a gentleman from Israel speak at church regarding the preparations for this temple. He said that right now they have identified several hundred (don't remember the exact number) Levites who are either already in Israel or preparing to move. They have all the golden articles made and waiting. They are in full swing preparation mode for the temple to be rebuilt and in old covenant working order. These are not" Messiah fulfilled" Jews, these are "Messiah has not come yet" Jews. My husband sat on an airplane a few months back next to a rabbi who also verified these facts.

I agree with your argument that the Lord would not reinstitute the old covenant. He doesn't. He is not happy with them as Isaiah and Daniel foretold. He is allowing them to be "handed over" as Daniel puts it for denying the Fulfillment of the law in human form. Hebrews explains it well as you have quoted.

btw, the word "sacrifice" in Daniel 9, corresponds to H2077 in strong's. You have quoted it as "daily offering" but the true word is "zebach" and it means "slaying or the flesh of slain animals". It is the same word used 161 times from Genesis to Zephaniah and translated 155 times as "sacrifice". You can study this further at

Hope I'm not rambling but I just wanted to be clear on what I was representing as truth.

marilyn      24 Jul 2011, 20:31

Found this also:
Since the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 A.D no lamb has been sacrificed for passover. In April 2008 this tradition has been reinstated in the old city of Jerusalem as expectation increases for the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem

marilyn      24 Jul 2011, 20:33


Doug Buckley      24 Jul 2011, 20:41

Not to be jerk, but I have to delete this post (see rule 3 at bottom). A few quotes are fine, just not copying an article.

Doug Buckley      24 Jul 2011, 21:33

OK the verse you're talking about with respect to great tribulation is Matthew 24.21, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be". What if Jesus means at that general time there will be great tribulation? In other words, the great tribulation doesn't start with the abomination of desolation, but that is the point that one must flee to the hills, btw, I think you're right on this.

Isaiah 66 is about God's vengeance on the Day of the Lord, and my opinion is that vs. 3 is a reference to religious hypocrisy.

There are tribulation references to a temple and animal sacrifice. The problem with taking this literally is that if nonbelievers do build a new temple and make sacrifices then how could it be called the "holy place". It would be an unholy place and the sacrifices would not be received by God and therefore could not be taken away.

There are references in the NT that believers make up the new temple with Christ as the corner stone. Maybe Daniel means spiritually the antichrist removes Christ and sits in his spot. The animal sacrifice symbolizes the ongoing salvation work of Messiah, though he only suffered once on the cross. Taking away the sacrifice might mean that the true workers of Christ are forced into hiding, but this is my speculation.

marilyn      25 Jul 2011, 08:27

great discussion Doug. here are my observations:

It's not general timing. He clearly stated this is different than has ever been or will ever be. Notice the WHEN followed by THEN, those connect the thoughts.
Matthew24:15WHEN ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, 16THEN let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:…….. 21For THEN shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Also notice "you therefore shall SEE". This will be an observable event, not a spiritual event. In fact, all of the rest of the passages that give details about what will happen, these details are vivid, actual, happenings.....people will die.....a lot of people. We will be tested and refined. The earth is going to be shaken. All of this is going to be played out in an observable sense. Why think any part of it is a metaphor for a spiritual event? Why would Jesus warn us with a sign of when to flee and then hide the sign? That would not be in keeping with the reason He gave the sign to begin with.

Read Isaiah 65 as well. The Lord starts out speaking of the grafted and then goes back to the firstborn. He is not pleased with their obstinence and proclaims what He is going to do to them. Why would they rebuild a temple and not sacrifice? In their eyes, how would atonement be made except to sacrifice? Why would we not take the word "zebach" literally? Don't we take it literally when we read Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deut? I know you deleted the articles I posted but go and read them. I'm sure there are many more since they have been sacrificing since 2008 according to that video. Did you watch it?

I don't know why it's called the "holy place" and yet they are not doing what is pleasing to God. In Rev, there is reference to the "holy city" as well and we know it is being trampled and destroyed by enemies. But I don't think you can discount all of the passages that point to literal sacrifice (the word zebach) and still maintain your position that there will not be sacrificing because God would not honor that. He obviously doesn't honor it and allows captivity once again for His people....only this time, it's a short period of 42 months.

Doug, if His people had accepted Messiah when He came, would there be a need for a great tribulation? After all, this is not judgment....that comes later. So all enemies of God are still going to get what's coming. This time of tribulation is for another purpose. What do you suppose that is with respect to the Jews? Think about all the stories we've read about them. (not that we're any different) But our Father has great patience. He is serious about the covenant He made and He is offering any and every opportunity to come into covenant with Him. According to them, that covenant relationship is outward symbols. (But you and I know it's of the heart) Even their inability to keep the covenant by outward symbols points to Messiah, yet they've turned away and gone back to the symbols that they can't keep. They have been returned to their homeland as stated in scripture and they will rebuild a literal temple as stated in scripture and they will reinstitute the sacrificial system as stated in scripture. All of this will be SEEN and the evidence that all of that is literal is the very prophecy being fulfilled as we speak. They are preparing and in some cases are already doing.

Romans 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Doug Buckley      25 Jul 2011, 15:35

Hi Marilyn, the Greek word translated as then is "toteh". According to Strong it can mean next in order or "at that time" generally. 15 and 16 can be tied together, but I'm not convinced about v.21.

Much of prophecy, and especially tribulation prophecy is coded in metaphor. Will the moon literally turn to blood? Neither is Jesus a literal Lamb slain, yet he fulfilled the real purpose of all those literal rituals God commanded to be carried out.

One shouldn't assume that the Jews who deny Christ represent the Jews in prophecy, because the apostles were Jews and many Jews have and are returning to God in Christ, just like was prophecied. Also the remnant of the ten tribes are part of the new covenant, and mentioned over and over again in prophecy. IMO believers, including the remnant of Israel and gentiles, are the people of God and the women's seed.

Doug Buckley      27 Jul 2011, 18:24

Good discussion about the tribulation period. I was looking over Matthew 24.21 again. It definiately seems like Jesus is talking about "great tribulation" for the saints at the time of the abomination of desolation. The context is fleeing to the hills. I have to look more into the timing of the tribulation.

ben      18 Aug 2011, 09:24

shorting of days is mot shorting of the tribulation period, it means less day light, less night time, it would no longer be a 24 hour period, it will be less meaning something has to happen to happen to speed up the rotation of the earth, couldnt tell what it is but is the only logical explaination, as far as the tribulation goes for the elect can only occur when christianity is outlawed which would only happen under a nwo with one head of state and one religion. also the implication of the mark of the beast where obvidsly no one who reads there bible no matter their doctrine will not accept, there for making themselve an enemy of the world, will have to flee considering satan himself will not give up in wiping us out, so we will be hunted, by shorting the days will give us an advantage in surviving, God will make us strong during this time wither it is strengh or will power i dont know, but i would like to think he gave Samson strengh it could well be the same for us. I do tho find it some what disdurbing that out of all the articals i have read and the comment treads that thier is still no clear indacation to what the bible is telling us. sometimes it seems over complicated, others to simple and even some to far fectched (aliens). with all the knowledge we as a human race has gatherd over time i think the time for speculation is over and mabye start using some logic. for example "the shorting of days"-what makes a day-a full revolution of our axis 24hrs-how can this be shortened- a quicker rotation. the next logial step would be to ask what event could cause this. plenty of possibilitys a giant earth quake, in 2012 we a spose to pass through our galactical equator, also the return of plant x on its 3600yr orbit which is spose to come close to earth this alone can have dramatic affects on gravitional pull also like the moon effects our tides this would make our seas rore. the way i look at is that God is sience true sience not half of what we are told, and therefor everything that occurs will have some logical reasoning, for every action there is an oppisite or equal reaction newton didnt make that up he just discovered it, God knows what chemical change has to be made to turn water into wine and he knows so much more. God has given the signs to look for and has told us what needs to be done, i dont think we will completly understand the book of revalations prior the end, but it will become all the more clearer when they start to unfold. I myself will not let myself be fooled nor will nothing that is going to happen surprise me. i dont know what thed good lord has in store for me, so i will continue praying reading my bible, and never and this is key never lose FAITH. if we all stick to this no matter the great deception, or killing or hunger or death, or what ever that vile creature has instore for us, we will end up by his side with him for eternity. May God bless all of u, and may ur jorney thro this dark time and the times to come be fruitfull and may our souls meet in the golry of God. Amen

marilyn      18 Aug 2011, 10:49

Ben, makes sense. I know that part of the prophecy in revelation is the 4th angel who sounds his trumpet causing 1/3 of the sun, moon and stars to turn dark. This could also be a clue that maybe what Jesus referred to as shortening of the days. Jesus may be talking about light separated from darkness where light is called day and darkness is called night as in Genesis. Therefore, with 1/3 less sun (light), we indeed have a shortening of that light, or saying it another way, a shortening of "day".

Regardless, the reason the days are shortened is so that some of the elect can survive. In other words, had the days NOT been shortened, no one would survive(Matt 24:22). This tells us that whatever He is referring to, Followers are dying because of it. And shortening of the days keeps that from happening.

Thinking about it this way almost makes me think He's talking about a total time period. Satan has only 1260 days to make His last stand, a short period of time in all of history........rather than just light/dark or less than which case, Followers could still be killed in totality. BUT, we will find out as it unfolds. Praise Him for caring enough to warn us and advise us.

A side note.......back to your thoughts......I read an article that said every time there is an seismic activity, ie earthquakes, volcanoes, etc. the earth's surface changes and our rotation actually speeds up. It's only by miliseconds but it's also my understanding that all of these cataclysmic events will happen with increased frequency and severity. We were just in Yellowstone 3 wks ago and that whole place (caldera, almost 1500 sq. miles) is a basin of a volcano. And it's is increasingly unstable. Hawaii, also. Isn't that interesting????

ben      19 Aug 2011, 02:54

Thank Marilyn, think u are the first person to say i make sense, real boost for me. Just to comment on the earthquake artical you where refering to think i may have read the same one. Could not tell you exactly which text's in revalations states this but there is a constant reference to a Great earthquake that will shake the whole world one never seen befor. conindence i dont think so, but surely if there was truth or fact to that actical there is our answer. one big event that could change every thing, the lenght of our days changing of landscapes( islands will flee, mountians will disapper) distruction of economy and inferstucture. it amazes me had God told John to write the book of revalations it makes reference to one event in two or three points of view, from heaven from earth from the spirtitual and so on. I read a free down load book "little book of prophecy and truth" by dan norquest. the way he explains things was powerful and really help me understand and use different keys to dicipher, was a blessing from God himself. Considering i was on the wrong path till something pop in my head. 'REVALATIONS' so i googled it.that was it the last 2 months have been exciting. since the book is also known as the revalation of Jesus Christ, and it turly is. if u havent read that book written by Dan i would recommend u do, mind blowing and he is so honest. praise be to Jehovah, for he is what he is.

marilyn      19 Aug 2011, 05:59

I will definitely get it and read it.... this subject is fascinating, not only to see prophecy unfold but to grow in our walk with the Lord. So much of it is being able to hear His voice as He explains it to us. Really listening to our Savior as He guides us through His word to make sense of it. It is so important that we hone this skill. We will certainly need it to survive. You said it right on....Revelation is the same event from all the different perspectives. Many clues can be gleaned by understanding that very thing. And isn't it just like our Lord to give some clues to some and some to others? Keeps the body of Christ dependent and accountable to each other. We are so grateful that we have a Savior who loves us this much. And grateful that the elect can converse across thousands of miles on this thing called the internet. "But you Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge" Looks like this prophecy is being fulfilled before our very eyes.....................

ben      19 Aug 2011, 10:50

that it is, and the time is upon us, when you read the book i recommend you will see the stage is almost set, here is one for you, not and exact quote but u will under stand. And before me i saw a great army one the world has never seen, and i heard them boast of an army of 200 thousand tousand. just recently cant tell u exactly but china proclaimed they can gather an amry of 200 million. another reference made is in the chapter titled the woman and the beast, the beast being describe as red dragon who cast down a thrid of the stars. red=communisum dragon- symbol of china, the stars still baffle me but i have read some where that they are symblo for angles, a possised army perhaps, fallen angles as we do know that demons can do this. another is the is the land of mog and the kings of gog will come down from the north upon israel. interesting mog is the acient tribes of russia and gog is the surrounding lands ie iran iraq ect, russia has already positioned millarty equipment and supplies in these countrys. why would they do this they are not at war. you may be wondering by now that russia is not north of israel, the hebrew word for israel is ephrim and refering to what david was talking about above, ten lost tribes well it has been speculated that cuacsian americans are decendants of the tribe of ephrim and considering russia is just a hope from canada which is north of who america. kinda makes a bit of sense, but here is the kicker if u go tho the chapter which describes the tribes in the old testiment u will find a reference to one of the tribes cant rember which one but is says they will bite a force which will come down on ephrim on the ankle like an adder and cause them to stumble back to where they came from, what i can tell you that tribe is been linked to wait for it, Canada. again i say the stage is set. with a little bit of reserch and a bit of logic together we all can make sense of this. cosidering the bible says the tribe will be reunited at the end means that they must be still in exsistance, now the 10 tribes where captured in 8th bc by the assians and taken over the caucasies mountatins the spelling is so wrong there is it just a coisidence that it sounds like caucasion? there is so much more out there i havent even touch on islamic, but keep in mind that a quater of the world is muslim and they are at the moment trying to impliment shalin law in the countries they have set a foothold in even here in australia and what is the muslim form of ecacution, beheading how will the martys die, beheading. i can go on but you can see what i am saying the stage is set or almost. i dear not predict anything and i could be wrong but i feel it in my heart, my soul feels the darkness approaching and i can not shake it. i pray to God for guidence so i may not get it wrong, and send out fear or even make myself a fool. i no longer fear death and am so excited for the play to start, i know there is no good to come out of this but the destination is worth the jorney and that is enough. he has given us the tools we need now we need to use them. Every day the glory of God shines brighter, and i would love be there next to him.

Sres      22 Sep 2011, 02:22


Jims      22 Sep 2011, 17:52

Tribulations are common but not the Great Tribulation which Jesus said that it would happen once . It has been proven that the coming Great Tribulation will be 42 months/1260 days. Therefore it will be clearer to write Great Tribulation and not Tribulation. Thank you.

George      19 Oct 2011, 21:33

I am not intending on sounding like a smart a** / i do believe and i tend to believe that when the anti christ heals the deadly wound it will be 5 months from the beginning to the end! The reason it moves so quick is because we will be dealing with a super intelligence and technology most people will act as if they had been stung by a scorpion and allow the people in charge to do what ever they want! Now to me not meaning to sound like a smart a**! I have struggled with this seven years and 5 month time period for years now! This is the question I pose to my self! " if Gods word is the beginning and the end and in certain areas it appears to say seven years and other areas say 5 months" "If the writings are devine and alive which means they know the begining and the end before it happened why then would there be a need to specify the time was shortened?" Really think about that! I have and my final conclusion was to prepare for 2 years and if someone says they are GOD or Jesus and im still in the flesh than prepair at that point for the next 5 years! At that point when the fallen angels arrive the bible is no longer faith based, it is reality live! Your believe system will be so strong at that time you will know God will help you till the end/ not just believe! You will know! Peace and love to all believers and to hell with the rest!

Beau      09 Feb 2012, 14:28

The angel stands on the earth and the sea in both Daniel and Revelation. That angel says the great tribulation will last for a time, times and half a time. This is 3 and 1/2 years. There are other verses verifying that this angel is talking about the great tribulation. I'm not an expert, but I have heard it explained. Right now, we could be awaiting the 6th trumpet--WW III which will start from the Euphrates--makes sense. Israel and U.S. talking about war with Iran, U.S. and U.N. troops stationed in Syria supporting the unrest, both officials from Russia and China saying these countries will get involved. We're talking 200 million troop deaths and 2.2 billion total deaths. I'm conducting research on the first five trumpets, the fifth one being the Gulf War. The fourth trumpet could symbolize a third of the heavens being throne down, as in a third of the angels in heaven. As in the fifth trumpet it says "one of the stars that had fallen" had the key to the abyss and unleashed locusts that sound alot like helicopters to me. I believe this star with the key to the abyss could symbolize the fall of Satan himself, but I'm not guaranteeing this has happened yet. Maybe this will at least challenge you to think about it more and not simply believe something you were told.

Beau      09 Feb 2012, 14:37

The first trumpet was WW1, according to The second trumpet was WWII, the third trumpet was the Chernobyl nuclear disaster in 1986. Again, this is according to

Beau      09 Feb 2012, 16:17

Chernobyl="mugwort" or "wormwood" (mugwort is a type of wormwood). Anywhere between Chernobyl and Gulf War, something in the atmosphere could have blocked out a third of the day and a third of the night somewhere. Europe did represent about 1/3 of the known earth when Revelation was written. The atomic bomb was like a burning mountain thrown onto an island in the sea, and during the Pacific battles in WWII, 1/3 of creatures could have died in places and 1/3 of the ships could have been destroyed in places.

Many say the military-industrial complex has sort of hijacked American foreign policy. Think about it--it is an industry of destruction--"Destroyer." I know this is an angel, but I think angels often work in the occult or hidden dimensions of things. The Gulf War was the 5th trumpet and the first woe. It lasted almost 7 months, but there could be 5 months of that period in which Revelation is strongly fulfilled. The U.S. military forces didn't have the power to kill everyone--though many died--but they did have the power to torture the populations of Iraq and Kuwait for a few months--both sides did. Who is the angel over war? "Destroyer"--makes sense right?

Now, "Destroyer" is bringing the world to the beginning of WWIII, which will be the worst war in human history, exceedingly the worst in fact. But after the devastation of this war, humanity will still not repent. There is a peace treaty made and 7 years after this peace treaty Christ is supposed to return and destroy the armies of the beast and false prophet in the war of Armageddon. The "Great Tribulation" probably begins when the beast overcomes the two prophets. These two men, though dressed in sackcloth have lots of power--I'm not sure who they are or what they represent. That is the best I can explain these possible events that fulfill the Book of Revelation

Jesse J      24 Mar 2012, 00:07

i was reading into this thread a bit and i must say a lot of you are mistaken about the 7 years of tribulation. Crist shorted that time one week or 7 years to a 5 month period for the Elects sake. how many days untill the waters were abated from the habitable world at that time of the ark? 150 days or 5 months. the hour of temptation is a five month period from penticost to the feast of tabernacles. The reason the oblation ceases in the midst of the week or 3 1/2 days is because saten is hear defacto maskerading as Crist. Convert 3 1/2 days to 2 1/2 months is when saten will be hear with his angels. read in revelation about when john observed a peace in heaven a 1/2 an hour! well that is when saten is thrown out of paradise by michael and his angels i could go on but i think you get the point.

George      24 Mar 2012, 00:13

Im on board with jesse j/ that is my understanding also

George      24 Mar 2012, 03:34

But I ask this again, If the old and new testament are the beginning and the end! Why would it say 7 years in one section and why would there have been a need to shorten it to 5 months if the word is the begining and the end! The new testiment fulfills the old testiments prophecies! How can we then change any time or shorten any time if that is the case! Alls i know is i will be thinking 5months and prepared for 7 years! Only because there is confusion TO ME about the time line! I do know it will be as it was in the time of Noah / they will be giving and taking in marriage with the FALLEN ANGELS! Again! So the angles and Satan will be seen as 1st contact with Aliens by most of the world! They will think that because most christian religions basically teach angels and satan are invisible and dont have a physical body! Wrong! So when the aliens come and heal the world! The whole world will whore after them! That is clear cut/ so 5 months 7 years or 2 weeks! I dont care/ i will not partake in the system at that time!

Jesse J      24 Mar 2012, 05:23

hello George, I think i undersand your question and you are right! I beleive God always has a plan and purpose: Genesis 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days. . . So a hundred and fifty days is 5 months and that is old testiment so lets go to revelation to finish the point. Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood... Typical satan casting confusion and darkness over the world. I believe god always intendended for the first tribulation to be five months. There are two tribulations and there are two Elections (Very Elect) and also (Elect)

Ann      28 May 2012, 01:34 is a good source of what God's word says about the end times. They don't allow people in cults to be a part of the 'boards' though, so read the criteria before joining. You can lurk regardless of beliefs. HTH

Donna Suarez      16 Jun 2012, 23:26

The tribulation period is seven years. I believe that we have started into the second part of the 3 1/2 years. We are very close to a great chastisement in which I believe that 2/3's of humanity will be wiped out. We all need to be quiet and constantly be in prayer. Start your day on your knees and pray that God's will be done in you. Then throughout the day act as if everyone you meet is Christ and you are his servant. That way we will always be ready for the Lord calls us home.

Matt      28 Jun 2012, 20:20

My name is Matt and I have a question regarding the tribulation. My family is Catholic but I am spiritually a Christian. I love, trust, and believe in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, and our Father God. I pray everyday to God, in Jesus's name, for forgiveness of my sins and for blessings and guidance. As much as I really want to believe that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture, I want to be ready for the worst. If there is a pre-tribulation rapture, then I believe I will be saved because I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour, who died on the cross for our sins, and was ressurected and rose to sit on God's right hand. I accept his gift of eternal life and put Jesus as number 1 in my life, number 2 being my family. If the pre-tribulation rapture was a false doctrine that was constructed by servants of Satan to bring false hope to believers in Christ and cause them to reject Jesus, then I want to be prepared to live through the tribulation, despite being persecuted for not accepting the mark of the beast. There is a passage that I've seen in the Bible regarding a woman who should flee to the wilderness and will be protected by God from the Antichrist, Illuminati, and minions of Satan. There is also the passage that those who are in Judea should flee to the mountains and be saved. I want to know if I will have to live through the tribulation, if I should escape and try to live in the wilderness and be protected by God? Do I leave my family because they feel that they have no choice but to accept the mark of the beast in order to live a normal life, disregarding the eternal consequences? I love my family but I love Jesus and God, first and I never want to abandon them, even if it means leaving my family? Should I try my chances in the wilderness even when there's a possibility that I will die trying, and surely die if I stay and continue to live my life as I do now? I really hope and wish and want Jesus to rapture us out before the tribulation, but I want to be ready for anything. I need advice

Doug Buckley      30 Jun 2012, 16:02

Hi Matt. I believe that Christians will be here during the tribulation period, (see my bible question about rapture for my opinion on it). Living through the tribulation period is something that alot of Christians think about, including me. The tribulation raises alot of issues, like where should we go, and what about our friends and family.

I can't answer all these tribulation questions, but I'll make a few points. First, don't get caught up in this constant tribulation-is-now hype. Until antichrist and the false prophets appear, performing signs and miracles, we are not in the tribulation period (Matthew 24.15-24).

During the tribulation the church will need to flee to the wilderness as Revelation 12 describes. The main reason is because Christians will be persecuted for not accepting the mark of the beast. There will also be wars and natural disasters. So yes, during the tribulation those who are not deceived will have to "head for the hills". Christians will have to hide out and be self sufficient during the tribulation years.

Living in a rural area or having a place to go during the tribulation is not a bad idea. Neither is knowing how to grow or preserve food. These aren't bad skills to have anyways. Less accessible places will probably be safer. Likely Christians will form their own communities, and help eachother, but theres also going to alot of betrayal going on, so beware. There's nothing you can do about adult family members, except try to share the truth with them and pray for them. If you have children, you would of course take them with you, God bless.

Nikki      01 Aug 2012, 02:31

I wandered onto this most interesting discussion and am curious about this excerpt from a post:

"Matthew24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, 16 Then let THEM which BE IN JUDEA flee into the mountains:…….. 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

"Also notice, "you therefore shall SEE". This will be an observable event, not a spiritual event. In fact, all of the rest of the passages that give details about what will happen, these details are vivid, actual, happenings.....people will die.....a lot of people. We will be tested and refined. The earth is going to be shaken. All of this is going to be played out in an observable sense. Why think any part of it is a metaphor for a spiritual event? Why would Jesus WARN US with a sign OF WHEN TO FLEE and then hide the sign? That would not be in keeping with the reason He gave the sign to begin with."

In this particular instance, why would WE see this as a warning for US to flee to the mountains IF WE are not IN Judea?

Am I missing something?
Just a thought.

Doug Buckley      03 Aug 2012, 04:49

Hi Nikki, I will try to comment on what you posted. The tribulation can be very tricky to understand. This is the point of biblical scholarship, to understand and rightly divide the scriptures. To take things literally that are meant to be taken literally, and to correctly interpret the things that are not.

Look at the context of Matthew 24.15 which is quoted in the your post. In Matthew 24.2-3, Jesus says of the temple that no stone will be left upon another. The apostles ask Jesus when this will be and what is the sign. Then Jesus goes into his description of the "tribulation" period.

If we take Jesus' words literally, and the historical fact is that the temple was destroyed around 70 AD, then you would assume he's describing what happened in 70 AD. A kind of tribulation happened then, when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. But the problem is that Jesus didn't return then. No one saw him return with the "clouds of heaven" to reign.

So we can either take Jesus' words about the temple literally, and believe that he returned spiritualy in 70 AD. Or we can spiritualize his words about the temple, and believe that this hasn't happened yet, and he will literally return with the clouds of heaven.

So some people take the first half literally, and spiritualize the second half about Jesus' return, and others (like me) take the first half more spiritually, and believe that the second part about Jesus' return will be a literal event that everyone sees. Still others split the prophecy so that some of it was fulfilled in 70 AD and the parts about Jesus' return haven't yet happened.

Btw, it is physically impossible for the stars of heaven to literally fall to earth (see Matthew 24.29). If you're confused, don't worry, welcome to the world of tribulation prophecy.

carol gonzalez      06 Aug 2012, 04:51

I hope that you believe the anti christ will come and decieve the masses. Then Jesus will return. In revelations it says the time will be shortened to 5 months, when the antichrist sits in the holy place and claims to be christ. I was a christian for 40yrs before I had ezekial,& revelations interpreted for me by Arnold Murray, shepherds chapel. So many things that hit me in the word and seemed so unbelievable, seem so simply true now. Like all the teachings Jesus told about like a litthle yeast spreads through the w hole loaf, comparing that with false teachings and many are called but few are chosen. People are asleep and not paying attention to the word of God, and current events, etc. We are all so busywith life, marrying and giving in marraige, drinking, working, not many have time for the pure word of God. Jesus said beware/listen/"know" the parable of the fig tree,(concerning season and the time of the anti christ),he didn't say it would be a good idea, or try and fit the time in. So many warnings, so many prophecies, "behold I have told you all things" its not a secret what is coming or what is happening.

Doug Buckley      06 Aug 2012, 05:02

Hi Carol, I moved your comment over here, where its more on topic. Arnold Murray is a good teacher, and he has exposed more people to more of God's Word than anyone else in human history. That doesn't mean that he's always right or that everyone that disagrees with him a false teacher, but he does serve the Lord.

I believe the tribulation will be a great deception and falling away. Many Christians say they believe in the Word, but its all based on emotion and feeling good, and they don't know why they believe it. I do believe that antichrist is coming and will deceive the masses and there will be great tribulation in the world. Its the elect who truly know and understand the testimony of Jesus Christ will come through this tribulation as the true bride of Christ, because they know God's Word is true.

scott      31 Aug 2012, 21:34

Daniel12:11 tells us when the end will be you just have to know a couple things and then it becomes clear. 1st Jesus christ is the one who took away the daily sacrifice once and for all at his death and reserection in 33AD and the next thing you would have to know is who causes the abomanation?
Who is the Antichrist? And what is the setup? Life begins at conception. The Antichrist was concived on September 21 of 1981 if nine months is the average lenght of a pregn. From April 3,33AD until September 21,1981 is 1948years 5months and about 14 days the year, month and day of Israels rebirth
you need to divide 1948.369 by 1290 to find a common and then multiply it by 1335 to come to about May1,2016 but this time has been shortened to about Sept23,2015 and if you want to know when the start of the 1260 days is you need to go back in time from may1,2016 1260days which is about November21,2015 mark your calander!

Azadok       25 Sep 2012, 20:25

The tribulation is a ruff subject but if we properly divide the word it becomes clear , Jesus promised it would be shortened for the elects sake . Now to how long , the locust army of Satan only has five months , Jesus also told us it would be like in the days of Noah . Noah was in the ark for five months until he came to rest upon mount Ararat . So five months it is , no questions . The next thing people are divided on is the seven year gap theory . Daniel 9 tells us for the going fourth to rebuild the temple to the COMINGof the messiah would be seven weeks three scor and two weeks . That is 69 weeks , so when Christ was babtised by John and the Holy spirit descended on him that completed the sixty nine weeks. The key word was unto the coming of the messiah not unto the departure at his crusifiction. From the time Jesus was babtised to his crusifiction was 3.5 years . The gap theory is for only the last 3.5 years of the 70 weeks according to what the bible says.

Many say it encompasses the whole last week because of what it says at the end of Daniel 9:26 where it says ........after three score and two weeks messiah will be cut off , but not for himself and the people of the prince shall come and destroy the sanctuary and the end the fore shall be with a flood and to the end of the war desolations are determined .........they tie this verse to the 62 weeks of Daniel 9:25 and say this is when Christ is crucified . The verse says AFTER 62 weeks but not when after which brings into conflict verse 25 statement UNTO THE COMING OF MESSIAH WILL COMPLETE 69 weeks, but their is no ambiguity in that statement it clearly states that 69 weeks will be completed at the arrival of Christ and 3.5 years later his ministry was finished on the cross just like Jesus said " it is done " and he gave up the spirit.

Cristians have been in tribulation ever since Christ died on the cross and we just await the GREAT TRIBULATION. peace I hope this helps or at least makes many dig deeper into the word .

Barbara      20 Nov 2012, 11:58

This is the most exciting and informative site I have found yet! Excellent input and exchange of ideas. I pray that we all bear with each other as we learn and grow and with humility learn and teach. Scott, I did the math and did not come up with the same date you did. I came up with around 21 Jan 2013. This is coincidentally around the Presidential Inauguration. Any other timelines I might not be thinking of?

Just a tidbit that I would like to share and find out if there are any others with similar experiences. I have not told too many people about this because the ones I did share it with thought I was poco loco....but...

In late '85 or very early '86 I had a dream that shook me to my core. I don't remember its entirety and didn't even remember it all when I woke up because I was still pretty shook up. In my dream I was walking down the middle of the street toward home when I noticed that there were people standing on the curb. As I looked further down the street there were small groups on the right side and some on the left going down several blocks. None were in the street or on the sidewalk but all were on the curb and staring at the sky. I looked up and saw the sky peel back like an old fashioned can with one of those "keys" that rolled the can back. A trumpet sounded and then a voice spoke. It spoke softly yet all the world could hear. The voice said "I told you one day the world would come to an end. Prepare for Judgement Day". In my dream I fell to my face and was trembling. The voice continued to tell me signs of the end. The voice told me that "good would be bad, and bad would be good". This to me meant that right and wrong would be confused. I/we were also told that the seasons would be confused. I know there was more said to me but I wouldn't dare quote it because I can no longer remember clearly. Anybody else out there have the same experience. I know that I know this was not just a dream and I don't believe I am the only one.

I am trying to get a handle on this because I know we are very close and I need to inform those that are close to me in a comprehensive way.

Doug Buckley      23 Nov 2012, 11:56

Thank you Barbara, and good to hear from you.

Laine      14 Dec 2012, 04:18

Hi I am very confused on the riddles of the context of revelation.. But then I'm very willing to understand and know everything is written on it.. Does anyone can share if are we on the length of the 7 year tribulation? And is Great tribulation will be about 3 1/2 months? Just lately I've found out that Obama will take effect of this VeriChip/MedChip on March 2013 and I have the thoughts that it is the Mark of the Beast that is written on the Revelation.. So wouldn't that mean that He is the 2nd Beast? And please share your knowledge on who will the beast be impersonate? Someone told that it was Pope John Paul II.. I still don't get it on the Seven Kings/Heads and Ten Horns..

Please guys share your ideas

Doug Buckley      14 Dec 2012, 05:19

Well Laine, people spend their whole lives trying to understand Revelation. Imo it hasn't happened yet and it isn't happening right now. What revelation describes is that the world becomes united in a rebellion against God, and there will be a person who leads the the whole world in a sort of new age cult where man believes that he is God and the world persecutes those who follow Jesus. Then Jesus returns to bring in everlasting peace and righteousness and justice. What you can do is get a good bible like NASB or KJV and just read and study for yourself without all the sensationalism. Then after that start to read what people have to say.

Donald Skelton      16 Jan 2013, 02:11

Actually the length of tribulation is 42 months. There is no scripture describing tribulation as 7 years. This comes from the mistaken application of the 70 weeks and the last week in Daniel. the last week was completed when Jesus died and rose again. The prophecy of 70 weeks was for the Jews and describes the period until Messiah would come and die and rise again. You cannot have 69 weeks and then a break of 2000 plus years and then continue the last week as this is not indicated in scripture.

Donald Skelton      16 Jan 2013, 05:37

Donald Skelton 16 Jan 2013

Length of the Tribulation.

Scripture in Daniel and in Revelation reveal that the tribulation is 3.5 years or 1260 days or a time, times and a half. The common error is to take the 70 weeks in Daniel and place a 2000 plus year gap between the 69th and the 70th and final week. Nothing shows a break and the 70 weeks was prophecy and a timeline given to the Jews in captivity showing when Messiah would come, be killed and rise again.
The 70 weeks has nothing to do with end times.

Bob N      23 Jan 2013, 16:17

Donald-- The tribulation period does last for seven years. The first three and half years (or 42 months) Satan will have entered a man's body and present his counterfeit, the Antichrist as the Messiah. He will inaugurate a world peace program which holds for 42 months or three and one- half years. After the three and one-half years The Antichrist breaks all of his pledges and destroys the obligations with Israel. (Daniel 9:27) The last forty two months will be the bloodiest in world history. This is referred to as the Great Tribulation or Jacob's Trouble.

Donald Skelton      24 Jan 2013, 00:56

Sorry, but you are basing the 7 year tribulation period onhe 70 week prophecy of Daniel, which is incorrect. The 70 weeks was a prophecy given to Daniel for the hebrew nation and spoke of the length of time from the time the command was given to rebuild Jerusalem, (See Nehemiah), until the Messiah came, died and rose again and instituted and reafiirmed the covenant in his blood.
Days and times given in the bible are consecutive times as well and there is no break in the 70 weeks, just 3 different periods of years, but there is no gap betweeen these years. Gabriel mentions nothing about a tribulation period, the rapture or the antichrist.
He spoke to a hebrew man about the hebrew nation and their capitol, Jerusalem, and showed Daniel when Messiah would come. This 70 week prophecy was completely fulfilled and has absolutely nothing to do with end times. Also, Satan only enters body of this world ruler for 3.5 years and then Jesus returns to destroy him.
Yhere is not enough space here to detail everything, but you can email me and I will provide the full details.

Donald Skelton      24 Jan 2013, 01:16

To be completely correct the Tribulation period is 3.5 years plus an extra 45 days,(see Daniel 12).

Here is the prophecy in Daniel 9
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people, and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

Jesus was the one who provided and /avenue of access to God and a complete forgiveness of sin by his death and resurrection, and not just a covering for sin as the old covenant did. Jesus was anointed when he was baptized at the beginning of his ministry.

Dan 9:25 Know, then, and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem, to Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks. It shall be built again, with a plaza and a trench, even in times of affliction.

Dan 9:26 And after sixty two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of a coming ruler shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, and war shall be until the end.

Jesus was cut-off at his death from the living when he died but he rose again on the third day.
Titus leading a Roman army sacked Jerusalem in 70 AD and made it completely desolate.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week. And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. And on the most outer corners, abominations by a desolater, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the desolater.

Jesus confirmed the new covenant with his disciples and the ministered for 3.5 years before he died. Jesus ministry was to the Jewish nation then. The gospel was preached primarily to the Jews until Stephen was stoned, then we see the Gospel being preached to other nations as well more and more.
Jesus the Messiah died, the veil in the tempple was torn in half, signifying an end to the old covenant of animal sacrifices and access to God was now through Jesus the living word and not the temple.

The only thing that refers to the end times is the desolation spoken of in Daniel 12, but this is not in the 70 week period but in the future after the 70 week period is finished.

Josh      17 Feb 2013, 03:52

Information that I've come across since the sign in the heavens 2011

The messages to the churches and the seals are connected by a promise to the church that corresponds to the seal being opened. At the end of each message in Revelations 2&3 there is the phrase "To anyone that has an ear" and then the word "victor" or "overcomer" depending on what translation you use. The messages of Rev 2&3 and seals of Rev 6 relate like this

1st seal- he will go out as a victor
1st promise- the word "victor" and he will eat from the tree of life.

2nd seal- He will be given a large sword to kill
2nd promise- the victor will not be harmed

3rd seal- a days wage for bread
3rd promise- the victor will receive the hidden manna

4th seal- he will be given authority
4th promise- the victor will be given authority

5th seal-a white robe is given to each of them
5th promise- the victor will be given a white robe

6th seal- a violent earthquake and who is able to stand
6th promise- the victor will be a pillar in the house of the Lord to stand forever

I was studying the book of Joshua and the taking of the city of Jericho when this began. Six days you'll march around the city and blow the trumpets once, and on the seventh day you'll blow them seven times.

The Sign in Heaven of the woman seen in Revelations 12 is seen every year on the "Feast of Trumpets" it is also the day that the books are opened (a picture of the seals) and known as the hidden day because it starts at a time that no one knows, because it is the only feast that starts on a new moon. Only after two witnesses come to the temple and report the sighting of the new moon can the feast begin. (A picture of the two witnesses or Revelations.)

The first six seals are to clean up the church and those who repent and clean up before the 7th seal is opened will take part in the 1st Rapture. The 7th church of Ladocia that doesn't repent is spewed out of His mouth and will go through the 7th year.

The trumpets of Revelations 8 and 9 are the seven feasts of the Lord the last year (PS 81:3), starting with the Feast of Atonement (because the 7th seal is opened on Feast of Trumpets and there is silence for half an hour) and ending on the Feast of Trumpets. The seven bowls of wrath will be poured out the seven final sabbaths following the 15th of Av. The 7th being poured out immediately after the 2nd rapture seen in Rev 16:15.

The 15th of Av begins the Jewish (not God's) feast of Tu B'Av. It is the beginning of the grape harvest that ends on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) It is also the marriage season for rabbinical jews, which is what Jesus was referring to when He said "Like in the days of Noah, they will be marrying and giving in marriage, then sudden destruction" God told Israel not to add to His feasts and thats what this feast is.

It will be the day that the abomination of desecration will be set up 1290 days after the sacrifice is taken away, and the Feast of Trumpets will be 45 days later or 1335 days after the sacrifice is taken away spoken of by Daniel in chp 12:11-12.

The false prophet will call down fire from heaven at the 5th trumpet. He will resurrect the man of sin who isn't referred to as the beast until the fallen angel of the 5th trumpet descends on him (like the holy spirit descended on Jesus) and he raises up an army that will torment the world for 5 months. The 5th trumpet will sound on the Feast of First Fruits in the month of Nissan and 5 months later is the Feast of Trumpets when Jesus will return. This is also the beast that will kill the two witnesses. (Rev 11:7)

Israel will be defeated on the 9th of Av, which is the fast of Tishra B'Av when the jews mourn for the destruction of the temple because according to rabbinical tradition both temples were destroyed on this day. God also told them not to observe this day.

The seventh bowl of wrath will be poured out immediately after the 2nd rapture. All of the saints from both raptures will attend the marriage supper of the lamb for 10 days and return on Yom Kippur (also known as the day that the books and gates are closed) God said in Lev 23:29 who ever doesn't afflict their souls (genuine repentance) on this day will be cut off. This is also the last day of the grape harvest when Jesus will tread the winepress in Rev 19:15

Each of the messages to the churches are a message to one church because their is only ONE CHURCH. The messages are meant to clean the church up and to bring us back to His commandments. He is our High Priest right now and according to God's law Deut 22 the High Priest can only marry a virgin. So we are to be pure and love Him with all of our hearts and be eager for His return like the 5 wise virgins. The seventh church of Ladocia will go through the seventh year of tribulation that will literally be Hell On Earth because they weren't prepared and haven't repented. It is supposed to be for purification or refinement, but they will be given a great delusion for testing Duet 13: 1-3.

I pointed out earlier the messages to the churches the phrase "Anyone with an Ear" and "Victor" well the first 3 messages "Anyone with an Ear" is first, and the last 3 messages "Victor" is first. Which points you to the Psalms Menorah. Psalms 111-117 use the same kind of pattern with the word "Hallelujah" or "Praise the Lord" (depending on your translation) Psalms 111-113 "Hallelujah" begins the psalm and in 115-117 "Hallelujah" end the psalm. 114 has no praise at all because it represents the 4th seal which is a horrible time of death and persecution. If you read the psalms along with the seals and the messages to the church you will see how they all relate.

Psalms 11-18 follow 111-118 closely but are (I believe) from the perspective of the 144,000 going through the last year during the 7 trumpets. Psalms 117 is the shortest and exact middle chapter of the bible. Psalm 118 and 18 are read from the perspective of the millennial reign and 119 being the longest chapter in the bible represents eternity where we will be perfected and learn and walk according to His law. 19 and 119 also closely relate.

I've always been taught that we, or the Holy Spirit is the one that restrains the antichrist and he can't be revealed until we are removed because of (2 Thes 2:6-7). But Daniel Chp 10 shows that Michael is the one that restrains him. In 1993 the Oslo peace agreement was signed and that was the "covenant with death" that the Lord said He would annul with violence(It was annulled on the very last day before sunset). Daniel fasted for 21 days and on the 24th day he saw a vision of the false prophet coming from Persia and his heart was heavy and sorrowful. Michael then appears to Him and says the antichrist (prince of persia) restrained him 21 days. So we won't see the antichrist, but the verse wasn't talking about us but Michael to show us the 21 and 24 day period.

Here is where we get the time, times and half a time from. 1993-2000= 7 years (a time) 2000-2014=14 years (times) 2014- 2017=3.5 years (half a time) According to Dan 12 Michael will stand up (a picture of Rev 12 "the war in heaven") and then we will be saved. Every time Michael is mentioned in the bible it is a picture of the rapture. It wasn't in the 21st day that Michael came but in the 24th.

So the time, times and half a time is a period of 24 and a half years starting on the feast of trumpets 1993 (when Oslo was signed) and ending in spring of 2018. We will be raptured that fall at the opening of the 7th seal and that will begin the final year that will end Feast of Trumpets 2018. I can not tell you what day that is because God's calendar year starts according to the barley harvest in Israel each year. I can only tell you that it is Somewhere between the last 10 days of August and the first 10 days of October.

The 14 years from 2000-2014 are also a picture of the 7 years of plenty and 7 years of famine of Genesis. Our housing market crashed 3 days before the Feast of Trumpets 2008 and the seven years of famine ends before the opening of the 5th seal. This is a picture of the one world government being established like in the days of Joseph. Everyone in the land sold all of their possessions including themselves into the hand of Pharaoh. By the end of the famine Egypt was a land of slaves. Jesus is coming back to lead us out of Egypt because we truly are in bondage. The entire world financial system will begin to crash beginning Feast of Trumpets this year and will get worse for the next two years according to the seals.

You can already see the prophecy of the first two seals being revealed. The four horsemen of Rev 6 are the four horsemen of Zech 6. The white and black horses went into the north (syria, turkey, russia) the pale horse went into the south (egypt and ethiopia) and the red horse (where we are now) goes through the entire earth stirring up men to turn their sword against their neighbor. Isaiah 17 Damascus will be a ruinous heap, and Isaiah 19 Egypt will revolt and people will be killing everyone else and God will appoint a wicked ruler over them.

The first sign in heaven seen in Rev 12 is the woman clothed in the sun with the moon under her feet. This happens every year on the first of Tishri or the Feast of Trumpets. Its the sign virgo and the twelve stars above her head are the stars the make up the constellation Ariel (leo) the lion of the tribe of Judah.

The other sign in Revelations 12 of the dragon casting down a third of the stars was fulfilled on the Feast of Atonement 2011 with the Draconids meteor shower (a picture of the hail of the 7th bowl). Draco is the constellation of the dragon that wraps around the pole star (from approximately 3 o'clock to 11 o'clock, 8 of the 24 hour divisions) and takes up 1/3 of the sky. The meteor shower happens every 13 years and has not fell on a feast day since Jesus walked the earth.

Blood red moons that fall on feast days come in pairs and fall on the Feast of Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles two years in a row. It happened in 1493/94 after the inquisition ended in 1492 again in 1949/50 after Israel was reborn in 1948 and in 1968/69 after the six day war of 1967. The next pair is in 2014/15 and it will be the seventh pair since Jesus walked the earth.

2018 will mark 70 years since Israel became a nation, it will also mark the 50th year from the Feast of First Fruits after Jerusalem was captured. The Jubilee is declared on Yom Kippur of the 50th of year. Moses who lived 120 said in Ps 90:10 that our days are 70 years and Jesus said that the generation that sees Israel reborn shall not pass away.

There is so much more but I've already written you a book and I think I've covered the main topics. If you know of any scripture that disputes what I'm saying then please bring it to my attention because I've been studying this day and night for the past 2 years and I can't find any. I would definitely like to be raptured before any of this starts but He never promised us that we wouldn't see persecution. He only promised us that we wouldn't see His wrath (that is poured out in the last year.)

I understand if you don't want to talk about these things, I know its not a very popular topic, but I wanted to share it with you because I'm called to wake people up and wanted to send you this. I've been going to missionary school because I wanted to go to Africa, but now I know I'm called to work right here in the states.

The "When" is not really important as the "what" that we are supposed to be doing right now. We both know many christians that would fit the description of the 5 foolish virgins. They won't have enough oil to go through these next few years because they had always planned on being out of here before anything bad happened and didn't think that they would need it. Like the 5 foolish virgins they will be cast into outer darkness (the last year) or like the man without the wedding garment (not prepared).

Anyway like I said, even if you don't believe this, I hope that you find some value in it and that the Lord speaks to you through it. Bless you

1Thess 5:2-4
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Donald Skelton      17 Feb 2013, 11:09

You have presented some unique perspectives and there are some interesting points that need to be examined further. I can't argue with you on much of what you say as I need to look at it, but I can definitely say without any doubts, so sure are the facts in scripture that "rapture" as popularly taught does not happen and that the body of believers only get caught up at the very end when Messiah returns. Thanks for the information.

carol gonzalez      17 Feb 2013, 15:07

Thank you Doug for your comment on my Aug2012 post. I agree with you. Arnold Murray may not have all the truth. But he sure has opened my eyes and given me a peace about all that is to come.
I speak in Tongues in my prayer life, and he doesn't believe in that. I have prayed in the company of someone I could not talk to because of a language barrier, so I began worshiping the Lord praying and singing in tongues, while driving and the person understood all that I said and when we were around someone who could interpret, he told me what I said. Pastor Murray does agree that that is what tongues is and 40 yrs ago I experienced what he said happended on pentecost. Arnold Murray says not to babel when you pray. (I think he may be referring to tongues) I was thrown off a little by that but I continue to worship and pray in tongues in my private prayer time.Because I believe the spirit intercesses for me with groans that cannot be uttered.
I also search the scriptures for myself and don't understand or quite get everything pastor Murray teaches on, but he tells us to search for ourselves, so what is not clear to me, I shelve and trust the Lord to reveal to me as things go on. I was reading about Noah and the days added up to 5 months, and that helped me to further hope and believe in the 5 month theory, along with Revelations. I hope but if it is not so, I will trust in the Lord. Arnold Murray says watch and if things happen out of the season of the locust, be ready. I believe there are nuggets of truths that are only opened to the earnest seekers of God himself. Jesus said he spoke to us in parables. I sure hope that the 5month time of the ark is a little nugget to old on to when the tribulation of Gods elect begins. I also like to believe that as God took the children of Isreal accros the desert to the promised land so will he do for his elect who stand for him. Also we have the blood of the lamb as they did to protect us and our households. And theres Daniel and Meschak, shadrack and abendego. Its all over. And if we serve him unto death, he will open the skies as he did for Stephen and other matrys throughout the ages to recieve us. Who cares whats going onwhen your looking straight at him nd the angels welcoming home.
I said enough, thanks again for your blog.

brva      10 Mar 2013, 00:02

hello i would like to add this thought mark:13-9-11 we will be delivered up to the synogouges of satan and the holy spirit will speak through you do not premeditate what you will speak. We will be in the flesh. Satan comes in peacefully and prosperous.

vi      14 Apr 2013, 19:28

I search for opinions on the internet and so many differ on the timing of the rapture and day of the Lord. The early Christians knew the answer, so why can't we know for sure without a doubt? I waver between pretrib, the red moon rapture, and when the two witnesses are raised from the dead and taken up. One clear thing to me though, is that at least the final 3.5 years God is dealing with Israel, the time of Jacob's trouble and they all, the remnant, turn to the Lord.

Doug Buckley      16 Apr 2013, 00:27

Hi Vi, Most of what's out there on the tribulation is garbage. Maybe that sounds harsh, but as you've noticed they all disagree with each other which tells you they are mostly wrong. These charts saying the world is gonna end at such and such, and we are in the tribulation are junk based on assumptions and bad theory.

My advice is to clear your mind and go to Matthew 24.4-44 and read this on your own, not once but 50 times. Jesus describes a series of signs to watch for and when you see ALL these signs this is when you know we are in the season of Jesus' return. This section is a good guide to properly understanding the book Revelation. It all happens in a season, and you need to know the signs to watch for that season. I have a video study on the seventh trumpet in the video study section, this might help as well. God bless

justin      11 Sep 2013, 16:32

where at in the bible does to state the time satan have on earth is shortan under who and verus so i can read it please

Doug Buckley      13 Sep 2013, 06:37

The shortening of the tribulation is a theory that the tribulation period is shortened to 6 months. Revelation 12.12 might be the verse you're thinking of where it says the devil will have great wrath because he has a short time.

forsuchatimeasthis      16 Sep 2013, 21:55

God said Do not be ignorant that a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day with the Lord. That is LENGTHENING the days. He said He would SHORTEN the days. 1260 + 1290 days = 2550 days. Next lowest unit from a day is an hour. THAT is SHORTENING the days to hours. 2550 hours = 106.25 days, precisely 3 1/2 of our months with one of the months being a 31 day month. 3 1/2 month, hmmm, where have we heard 3 1/2 before, oh yeah 3 1/2 years SHORTENING to the next lowest unit is 3 1/2 MONTHS. That the numbers divided like that is uncanny, no, it's SUPERNATURAL and I believe it has the mark of God all over it. Now get this. On torahcalendar dot com which has our current calendar, the incorrect Hebrew calendar, the corrected Hebrew calendar and the Creation (Spiritual) calendar, calculated from scripture and NASA charting of the signs in the heavens God made the stars to be and said so also in Revelation, the year 6001, the 7th Millennium of Christ begins March 21, 2015. Going back 7 years,, 2550 days exactly from that point, we find that Israel and Palestine met in SECRET (in the news) and would not disclose if they CONFIRMED a peace treaty on March 28, 2008. Then, exactly 1260 days later, Obama, on 9/11/11 stand is the TEMPLE of the BODY ( and by the way delivered a speech on a stage he had designed as the Pergamon altar of a Greek temple at another time) and reads from Psalms "Be still and know that I am God" and allows no religious leaders to speak plus all the other blasphemy against Christ and the Bible he has uttered proud words. 1290 days from that speech is March 21, 2015 the first day of the 7th millennium March being the beginning of the Hebrew year. So why haven't all the things in Revelation happened by now? Because this was an OUTLINE, a kind of preview TYPE of the tribulation like Abraham being asked to offer Isaac was a TYPE of God sacrificing His son for us. It also satisfies the 70th week. Now it is uncanny, whoops, SUPERNATURAL that the date listed for the rapture (and by the way we CAN know the date and time, another discourse, and God WANTS us to be watching on more than one level so it doesn't come as a thief in the night as it will for the wicked) is of course on Yom Teruah......and they say in the year 2014, that is September 25, 2014 and God will blow the first and last trump calling us home as the first trump of this day announces the presence of the new moon and only He knows when He is going to announce it but it is going to be just before we see it on this day of Yom Teruah (the feast called by the Jewish idiom "No one knows the day or time") which is called also "The Day of the Last trump" because it is the last trumpets blown of the 7 feasts of the year, though being the 5th feast the last one where trumpets are blown, and it go on it is uncanny, whoops, SUPERNATURAL that 6 months (179 days are between September 25 and March 22, with I believe as someone said here God adding the extra Hebrew month (+30 = 209 (210 days - 30 days to a Hebrew month) to even up the times "they have thought to change the times and the seasons so you won't know when to keep my mo'eds" - [paraphrase, would have to find scripture but He said it) (mo'eds -feasts or more correctly APPOINTMENTS with God) and that makes 7 months (SHORTENED) from years. A year is like a month and a month is like a year with the Lord? Hmmmm. and adding that month is another way of SHORTENING the days as those left won't actually have to live through that extra month and that is I believe why the extra 30 days is added (which ends up being subtracted (SHORTENED)) to the second half of the seven years (1260 and 1290 days). And it could be the great tribulation actually only takes place for the last 3 1/2 months of that 7 month time frame after we depart) for SUCH IS THE MERCY OF GOD!!!! HE IS A GOOD GOD and HE IS FAR OUT GREAT!!!! I LOVE YESHUA! EVEN SO, COME LORD JESUS, COME! however you want to do it!!!!! Oh, and the .25 of a day refers to the first of the four watches of the night (having SHORTENED the day to just the night which is the beginning of the HEBREW day and Yom Teruah of course) so I believe He even gives us the TIME of His coming. This is so right on according to torahcalendar who calculated from the signs in the HEAVENS in Revelation regarding the birth of Christ and NASA charting Yeshua's birth to be Yom Teruah at around 6:17pm, creation year 4000 or 4001 that is the first watch of the night. That leaves exactly 2000 years (so must have been 4000, can't remember) on the corrected Creation Calendar between Yeshua's birth and his Second Coming. The 120 years (of jubilees every 50 years, years of freedom and homecoming) 6000 years of mankind prophesied and applied to both the times of Noah and these end times. Why we didn't know about the Peace Treaty is because the spirit of the AntiChrist which is, like the Whore of Babylon, a collective (Whore is a city), AntiChrist Beast same demonic Satanic spirit is a MASTER of DECEPTION and does not want us to be ready and Obama standing in the TEMPLE of the body when we are all looking for a rebuilding of the temple - yes Yeshua WILL rebuild the temple of the body of Christ including those fallen away who repent in the end times just as He rebuilt the TEMPLE of his body 2000 years ago and they didn't get it! This is the deception of the AntiChrist, also to proclaim himself God in a veiled way by quoting scripture. Now I do not say Obama is the antichrist, but He certainly has the spirit of the antichrist and again, I believe it is a collective with 10 HEADS, 10 leaders around the world. So, LOOK UP, TAKE COMFORT, OUR SAVIOR IS COMING VERY VERY SOON!!!!! It depends upon whether the calendars were correctly calibrated whether is will be 2014 and I believe with the confirmation of all these numbers working out so SUPERNATURALLY it has been, yet the room for error may be that He will not come until the year 2016-2017 given it appears that the previous jubilees were 1946-47 and 1966-1967 based on the events that happened but Creation calendar says 1945-1946 and 1964-1965 so it is SOON SOON SOON either way!!! I think God has His hand behind the calendar reconstructions because He wants us to know when He is coming!!!!! And it could be that rapture date is correct and that is a fact SUPERNATURALLY appeared as God has done that before with me, the next time I looked a few minutes later it only said the resurrection of the saints Tishri 1, 6000 whereas it before said clear as day "The rapture will take place on Tishri 1, 6000", adding in parenthesis "(September 25, 2014)" when I asked God again and again "Please reveal the date as I can't wait any longer!!!!" That would make 2 1/2 years to the beginning of the creation year year in March 2016 if usually - and that could mean that he eliminated that extra month (which is a year SHORTENED) by the Hebrew process or that the tribulation starts now or is still going to be the last 3 1/2 or 7 (or 6 months). Do you follow me? God put a love of math in my heart, I used to love doing budgets but now I see what it was about - his wild and spectacular math all throughout the Bible! And who cares about budgets!!!! HALLEJUIA!!!

forsuchtimeasthis      16 Sep 2013, 22:03

On the end of that text I meant 3 1/2 years of 7 (or 6 years) not months, I got tired!!!! That was in talking about the jubilee year if it is 2016-2017.

Faith      15 Oct 2013, 01:43

It has been shortened to five months people open up your eyes, minds and bibles and READ !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Harley      01 Feb 2014, 00:53

Stumbled across this thread today while researching the topic; and wanted to add that Matthew 24 is clearly speaking of the abomination of desolation chastisement tribulation; and not the entire treaty period (7yrs); nor either half. The scripture is fairly clear; and so I'm wondering if maybe someone misunderstood Murray with respect to exactly which period he's referring to?

@Barbara, I wanted to comment that I had a very similar experience as yours; while wide awake; in 1978. Shocked me senseless. Please keep in mind that we are supposed to write down such dreams/visions; and send them to the seven churches. My own experience with this has been unique, where I appear to be more of a vessel or medium to such interaction. I awake every morning, to recall and record the dream/vision, and I always end it with the phrase "It's just a message for the stoke". It's not about us (humanity).

Here lately, I'm following Rabbi Glazerson's biblecode site and the festival eclipses of 2014-15. Both seem to be pointing to a 2014 war and temple treaty (Psalm 83)?

Thanks to everyone here for participating, helping others to sort this all out.

JSR      24 Jun 2014, 15:34

Help please

I am glad I found this thread. I am not well versed in the Bible, I have been a Christian for 8 years. I am the first Christian in several generations. My grandfather hung himself. Alcoholism runs in my family and I have 15 years of sobriety. As a child I had spiritual gifts. I would have dreams that would come true, and I had some thoughts or visions of what I thought were of a past life or future existence. Many of these impressions were of a battle in a starry or space realm and I was with an army that fought wearing gold armor and weapons of old- swords, bows, spears... we were fighting demons. I fell in love with a female warrior that had the ability to heal. I sacrificed In these impressions I was not from there, I was not a warrior angel, I was a love angel but I fought well. As the battle went on only the best warriors and strongest demons were left. I end up sacrificing myself and I hurt the "beast" which before we could never hurt in battle. There are also giant warriors with us. I knew nothing of the Bible when I had these impressions/dreams/visions. When I was 10 or 11 years old I lost the ability. I paraphrased much of the details here in order to get to my point quicker as I will paraphrase or shorten information going forward.

For decades I would only remember a dream or two a year. Its like my body was resisting them. With my AA recovery I still struggled with many vices and obsessive compulsive behaviors-gambling, pornography, glutony..... After getting into the word more I sought God for comfort instead of my vices, I had lost 50 pounds. I was becoming blameless. I am a single Father with sole custody of my 8 year old daughter, I have never been married(by law). I had not been intimate with any women for a couple years. I looked and felt great on the inside and out. My will really wanted a relationship, a mother for my daughter.

The number 13 has had a strong presence in my family my whole life. I think this is important somehow. Here are my families B-days.

Dad 1-17-1941
mom 1-4-1943
Bro 8-13-1962
Bro 7-7-1964
me 7-20-1971

13 days between my mom and dads B-day, oldest bro born on the 13th, 13 days between me and my middle bro's B-day, and on my B-day 20-7 =13, almost every address or phone number we had until I was 11 had a 13 in it.

On 12-23-2013 I met and started dating a lady on a Christian dating website. On our second date I asked her if she believed in more than one heaven? I asked her the question because she was the healer in my childhood visions 30 years ago, I did not tell her this. She said in heaven she will be riding her horse with a sword in her hand. She mentioned to me that as a little girl she would scratch the name Jeff(my name) on the barn door and that she did not know anyone named Jeff. I fell madly in love with her, for months I seemed to be in the Holy Spirit and my childhood abilities came back. There seemed to be all kinds of spiritual warfare going on within our relationship. The number 13 runs in her family as well.

At the time I only needed 3-4 hours of sleep, I felt like I was in my 20's, no aches of a 42 year old, I healed from the flu in 6-8 hours, Plus I was a seer again, it was amazing. In February of 2014 our love was at its height and she wanted me to move in with her. The spiritual warfare was too much though and she broke up with me by the end of March. It was devastating losing her, especially when I thought it was divinely arranged. Throughout the whole relationship I used James 1:2- 1:8 as my foundation, I never doubted that she was my soulmate. The spirit was still with me a few weeks after the break up. It has been almost an obsession to try and figure out what I experienced with her. I have been researching on-line and reading the Bible diligently the last 3 months.

The book of Revelations disturbs me because I see so much of what I experienced with her in the book.

1. Both her and I fought spirits while we dated.

2. Rev 1:13 someone like "a son of man" I have been a teacher, school counselor, and soon a ministry leader in my church. I also have scars on my arms from donating plasma to pay for a lawyer to get custody of my daughter. In summary I have been called teacher, counselor, minister, and I have gave of my blood for one I loved. SPOOKY. Oh and there is that number 13 again.

3. In numerology 666 is the number 9 my birthday is the number 9 and my ex-girlfriends birthday was a 9. It almost confirms that we ere fighting on the beasts realm like my childhood visions.

Do a google search on heavenly realms in the Bible look at how many times the number 13 or 1:3 comes up in reference in scripture. I think I was in a heavenly realm and connected to the H Spirit, but I am not sure.

My middle brother born 7-7-1964 in numerology has a birth year of 7 so he has three 7's associated with his B-day. 777

Deuteronomy 15 talks about every 7 years canceling debts, and to lend to others freely. In February of 2014 when I was the happiest ever, felt the spirit, felt youthful, a gnostic may call it the fullness it was my 7th year, beginning my 7th(7 year) cycle, and my 7th month. 42years old and 7 months.777

In February I was 511 months old, and my middle brother was 595 months old(His B-day is the natural 777). Lets go WAY out on a limb that with me and my impressions that I have been experiencing

The first number in Genesis 5 is 130(it has a 13 in it) after Noah was born Lamech lived 595 years, right after this number it mentions Lamech was 777 years old when he died.

With the timing of the blood moons and my recent experience I would like others impressions on what I experienced and if you think there is any connections between the numbers in the Bible and my family. I am the only Christian in my Family(my daughter is also). Thank you.

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